[Gotthard Heinrici]

Well to try and add some objectivity to this discussion, The Red Army sure wasnt nice and just ask anyone who lived in Poland or Prussia about that one. As to whether they couldnt fight or were the worst combatants well I dont know about that. In 1941 Russia became engaged in a fight for its very survival and initially its army fared very poorly indeed losing well over 2 million men to Death or capture. There seems to be a pervading myth that the Russians had no part in stopping the Germans at Moscow and that "General Winter" was the main reason coupled with the fact that the Germans were ill-prepared for it. The Russians launched vigorous counterattacks forcing the Germans back and remember up to this point NO-ONE had been able to do that to the German Army. Remember that the Wehrmacht were not the only Army fighting in wintry conditions. The Russian side of the line wasnt warm. The Russian army had to learn new Strategic and Tactical Doctrine whilst at the same time hold back the Germans long enough to put it into practice.

Stalingrad didnt happen by itself - nor was it solely down to German Ineptitude. Russia was already grasping the idea of attacks at a Strategic level and tried it out at Stalingrad, cutting off 6th Army and almost cutting off Army Group A in the Caucasus. That takes some nerve to try and carry out. The pinnacle of their excellence in the Strategic operational arena came in 1944 with the launch of Operation Bagration, wiping out Army Group Centre and cutting off Army Group North.

jimbo has asserted that Man for Man they were the worst army of any combatant Nation in World War 2. so who would you prefer to have defending your city: A Russian Guards Regiment or a Romanian Regiment? Or how about an Italian Bersaglieri Regiment? I know which one I'd pick.

The Russians cared little about life, neither did the Wehrmacht. The two armies who placed inidividual lives above all else were the US and the British and it showed.

By the way, this post is not a justification of Russian Morals and Ethics or indeed a praising of Joe Stalin. It is simply to state that this idea of a human wave that was like a mob does not stand up if you look at the campaigns in the East from 1943 onwards.

Incidentally to all those who think that the western Armies were far superior, apart from the Falaise pocket there is no recorded envelopments of German Forces by Western Armies like there was in the East. The Western Armies were obsessed with their flanks being exposed. The germans and Russians had no such qualms.

The soviet Union stands guilty of horrendous crimes against its own citizens and the citizens of all countries that it advanced through. As an example of this I present the story of the Bishop of Berlin writing to the vatican asking the Pope to announce that being a victim of rape was not a sin due to sex outside marriage as so many women were carrying this and commiting suicide because of it.
The Slaughter of the Polish Officer Corps was another unforgivable deed. Whatever about the Japanese at Nanking it doesnt take away from the fact that Russia committed terrible war crimes.

But to make the point that the Soviet Union had an inept army is a terribly misguided statement.


Maxpower/Dengxiaoping, You really need to tone down your posts. You can make a point without being personal or confrontational in any way. For example, I know that I would disagree with some things Jimbo has posted, but I respect his views and enjoy the debates I have engaged with him and hope to continue to do so!!! You can make a good contribution to this board but without insulting members.