Battalion War Diaries May 1940

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With about an hour to spare yesterday at TNA, I decided to take a look at the war diaries of the 150 Bde that were involved in the actions in and immediately to the north of Ypres in May 1940. However....they're not there! Their diaries all seem to have May 1940 missing from their files and the catalogue.

I got the (150) brigade diary a while back and have the individual diaries for 17 and 13 bde etc, who were to the south, but has anyone got any idea why the 150 bde battalion diaries are all missing this month?

Dave

[Rich Payne]

I can't think of an obvious answer. I assume that there were multiple copies originally ? I wonder if the Green Howards Museum have anything ?

Do you know where the NA copies came from ? Would it have been a central WD archive ?

A visit to the NA is something that I still have to do. Are there generally diaries to Battalion level ? Presumably most are not too detailed for May - June 1940 as the contempraneous notes would have been destroyed and the diaries must have been compiled by the Officers after return to the UK ?

If you've been looking at 50th Div indices, did you happen to notice if a diary exists for their Motorcycle Battalion, 4th Royal Northumberland Fusiliers ? Their part in the Arrras counter-attack is something that I'd like to look at.

Am I likely to find a diary for Div HQ Royal Engineers (of 2nd Div) ?

And a final request. Any chance of some copies from 17th Brigade's diary ?

Cheers,

Rich

[Paul Reed]

Dave - I have found that periods like this when battalions were dispersed, overrun, or completely wiped out or taken prisoner resulted in the loss of records. This could explain the situation here, however generally speaking I have found most May 1940 records to be intact. Sometimes records do end up in odd places; have you looked in CAB?

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Originally Posted by Paul Reed

Dave - I have found that periods like this when battalions were dispersed, overrun, or completely wiped out or taken prisoner resulted in the loss of records. This could explain the situation here, however generally speaking I have found most May 1940 records to be intact. Sometimes records do end up in odd places; have you looked in CAB?

I didn't specifically look in CAB, but did check the catalogue for any reference. All the diaries that I specifically needed were there (and I've got), but these 150 Bde diaries were just for interest's sake and for the possibility of extending my present "project" (and to kill a spare hour in all honesty!).

The reasoning you mentioned did cross my mind, but I'd have thought it more likely that the diaries of 17 Bde (they're all there) would have been the missing ones rather than 150 bde in this case. (It also crossed my mind that maybe there was something that was better off "covered up", but that's just me and my liking of conspiricy theories I think!) Like you,I've found that every other May 1940 diary that I've wanted has been there, that's why I found it odd that none of these particular ones are.

All I need is actually in the 150 Bde diary (which I have), but it would have been interesting to see what the individual unit diaries (especially that of 150 Bde AT Coy - for another thread on here)had to say.

cheers.

Dave.

[CROONAERT]

Originally Posted by Rich Payne

Are there generally diaries to Battalion level ? Presumably most are not too detailed for May - June 1940 as the contempraneous notes would have been destroyed and the diaries must have been compiled by the Officers after return to the UK ?

If you've been looking at 50th Div indices, did you happen to notice if a diary exists for their Motorcycle Battalion, 4th Royal Northumberland Fusiliers ? Their part in the Arrras counter-attack is something that I'd like to look at.

Am I likely to find a diary for Div HQ Royal Engineers (of 2nd Div) ?

And a final request. Any chance of some copies from 17th Brigade's diary ?

hi Rich.

In answer to your questions...

Yes, there are (usually) diaries to battalion level and they can actually be very detailed (those of the 6/Seaforths and the 2/RSF of 17 Bde for example are excellent).

I haven't really been looking at the 50th Div as of yet (as I said, my yesterday's search was just idle curiosity more than anything), but , if time is on my side (very likely!), I will be doing so in the next week or so. These exist, so you're in luck (WO167/800)

2 Div HQ RE/ - Not according to the NA's online catalogue

17 bde diaries - Yes, but what is it that you need ? (I've the diaries down to battalions but haven't done them in electronic format as yet (which is "quite a few" pages worth!))

Dave

[Rich Payne]

Thanks for the detailed reply on this one Dave

I'm fully intending to plan myself a couple of days at the NA but it's nice to have an idea of what's there. I haven't found the on-line index very enlightening but it's a while since I looked. What does it cost you to photocopy an 'average' war diary ? (if such a thing exists).

My interest in 4 RNF stems from their being equipped with Norton sidecar outfits and reading Blaxland's description of the attack on Dainville. General interest really.

My Norton has HQ RE 2 Div insignia so I'm trying to find out more about the route it would (should ?) have followed especially which bridges they took care of. I suppose that they would have remained physically close to HQ 2 Div.

And finally, because my Grandfather was 2nd Northamptons (he was a CSM at the time) anything there would interest me. Ominous though that they were the one Battalion of 17 Bde that you didn't mention !)

Rich

[CROONAERT]

Originally Posted by Rich Payne

What does it cost you to photocopy an 'average' war diary ? (if such a thing exists)...

...And finally, because my Grandfather was 2nd Northamptons (he was a CSM at the time) anything there would interest me. Ominous though that they were the one Battalion of 17 Bde that you didn't mention !)

There isn't really an "average cost" as they are variable. £2 - £3 per (diary) month without the "extras" perhaps (more if you use the TNA copying service remotely). I tend to photograph them myself though, so it's about £4 for about 500 pages for me (battery costs!).

I didn't mention the 2/Northants because their diary was the sparsest of the 3 (3 pages encompassing the 7 days 25th -31st May), though it's actually the clearest to read. Nothing to worry about there - shall I copy that one for you?

Dave

[Rich Payne]

Thanks Dave, That would be great if you could. It's also useful to know that cameras are allowed.

Cheers. Rich

[Paul Reed]

Rich - I use a digital camera all the time at Kew. It saves a huge amount of money, and it makes it much easier to store the info once you have it. There are power points on every table to recharge camera/batteries, and some tables have copying stands built onto them, and there are free-use copying stands across the reading rooms. Using the stands IMHO means you can get a better quality reproduction. I usually copy everything in a black/white setting on the camera as I find it gets you better results.

On the subject of WW2 diaries, generally speaking I find them much more detailed than - say - WW1 diaries. A very high proportion are typed, and they often contain all the Pt I and PtII orders, which are full of detail. I have found all sorts of fascinating stuff in the diaries; got some great material on fighting in the Bocage yesterday, for example. I am sure you will find much to keep you busy!

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Originally Posted by Rich Payne

because my Grandfather was 2nd Northamptons (he was a CSM at the time) anything there would interest me.

here you go, Rich...