British 50th (Northumbrian) Division in Normandy

[MLW]

All:

I have placed something of interest for you on my website (bottom of the main page) for you to download. It is a student thesis from the US Army Command and General Staff College titled:

"50 Div in Normandy: A Critical Analysis of the British 50th (Northumbrian) Division on D-Day and in the Battle of Normandy"

Here is the abstract: In late 1943, the British Army ordered the veteran 7th Armored, 51st (Highland) and 50th (Northumbrian) Divisions to return to Great Britain to provide combat experienced troops for the D-Day invasion of northwest Europe. On D-Day, the 50th Division achieved nearly all of its objectives. But by mid-June, the 50th held positions only a few miles beyond its final D-Day positions. The apparent failure of this veteran division in later operations led many senior leaders to believe that veteran divisions had become a liability. This thesis evaluates the performance of the 50th Division in Normandy by examining the following: the 50th's prior combat experiences in France, North Africa, and Sicily; the 50th's overall readiness for war during the period before the invasion, including pre-invasion training; and the performance of the 50th Division in specific combat engagements in Normandy.

I hope it generates some discussion.

The website is: Maginot Line at War 1939-1940

Regards, Marc

[Tom Canning]

MLW -
essentially I would agree basically with your extract as XXX corps as they were known were not performing as well in Normandy as they did in the Desert under Lt.Gen Oliver Leese.

The whole history of that Corps is of course, rather different inasmuch as 50th Div performed well in France in the early days...the 51st surrendered to Rommel at St Valery... and the early regiments of 7th Armoured e.g 11th Hussars( Cherry Pickers)
had been involved from December 1940 at Sidi Barrani particularly.

The 50 th after Dunkirk were sent to Africa - the embryonic 7th Armoured were there already and the re-constituted 51st (ex 9th Highland Div) joined them at El Alamein as XXX corps where they fought almost every battle untill rested after Enfidaville(Tunisia) to be ready for the Sicilian campaign after which they went back to the U.K. - without Lt. Gen Leese to stayed on and finally took over 8th Army when Monty went back to the U.K. also.

Monty insisted on having XXX corps as well as 8th Armoured Brigade with him to bring some battle experience into the newly formed 2nd Army ( as did Bradley with the "BIG RED ONE" et al) - he also insisted on bringing many battle tested Officers as well, including LT.Gen. Dempsey for 2nd Army and Brig.Gen. Urqhuart for 1st Airborne, Brig Gen."PIP" Roberts of 3rd Tanks for 11th Armoured Div.

But these were tired troops and it showed, and many heads rolled at the top end until the right leaders were appointed which made a tremendous difference.

the 50th were finally broken up in Germany, as Monty stated " they have fought well for too long and suffered grievious casualties- so now they should rest" the 51st went on despite losing their commander at the Rhine crossing to the end, and 7th Armoured with the "Cherry Pickers" in the van were first into Berlin - after the Russians !

So extracts are wonderful but do tend to 'slant' history slightly.....now if we could read a similar analysis of some American Divisions and Corps such as 11 corps at Kasserine and V1 corps at Anzio - OR the 5th US army at Salerno - much the same problems with the top end leadership ????
Cheers

[Paul Reed]

Superb stuff - many thanks indeed.

[MLW]

The thesis' extract (written by the author of the thesis) leaves the reader hanging. The thesis itself concludes that the 50th Division, considering the circumstances, performed well in Normandy; better than the 7th Armoured and 51st (Highland) Division.

Posting of the document was not meant to imply any superiority of US forces. In no way is that my place.

[Owen]

Enjoyed that.
I wonder what the percentages of each unit were old hands / new drafts.
I met a D-Day Veteran, from Kent , who was transfered with many other fellow Buffs to the DLI in the run up to D-Day.
I'm sure there was enough fresh blood in the ranks to keep them sharp.

[Tom Canning]

MLW -
No implication was noted - unfortunately I cannot get the full thesis as somehow " the link has been damaged beyond repair " - I am informed so can only comment of the extract -

My comments vis a vis the American corps efforts at Kasserine et al for which I would apologise profusely, is probably tempered by far too many American authors "revising" true factual history for the benefit of Hollywood, which I abhor.

As we probably both know, the American "superiority" was only in numbers.
Cheers

[Owen]

Tom
Try this...

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzev1mpx/s...n_normandy.pdf

[Tom Canning]

Owen -

same message from pdf - "damaged beyond repair " could be my end of course....

[MLW]

PM me with an email address and I will glady send it to you. Regards, Marc

[Tom Canning]

ouch - thought i was on the Pm ....