Grossdeutschland

[Gotthard Heinrici]

An interesting article about one of the Wehrmacht's most famous formations:

General Overview of Großdeutschland History

I didnt realise that they guarded Hitler too in addition to "Leibstandarte"

[Christos]

Indeed....LAH were an army joke until their combat performances became known......the training provided to Das Heer's premier division was nothng short of barbarous, as aptly told by GrossDeutschland veteran Guy Sajer in his book "The Forgotten Soldier", a standard read for any Eastern front afficiendo.....and as always, Sven Hassel's books are a constant source of ground roots information ( for instance, that 'Ivan' had his vodka issue day on a THURSDAY.....local commanders tried to time their attacks for vodka issue day, knowing full well the lack of effect all these stoned Soviet soldiers wouyld have for a few hours at least)....little glimpses like that that 'polish' your knowledge.....From the Eastern Front we get some of the most haunting and tragic photographs of all....the look of despair captured on the faces of Russian Army prisoners is particularly disturbing....you know that fewer than 1 in a 1,000 of these wretched and tortured souls ever made it back to the motherland....and wonder what our government might well say and do should we be faced with a similar situation.....do you honestly think the people of most western countries could put up with casualties on the scale of 'Ost-Front' without some kind of social/political backlash?

Totalitarian dictatorships, particularly Stalin's, had a powerful grip on the consciousness of the country.....so strong it had already survived the Purges, and in my view, the Soviet war was dreadfully mis-managed by the Soviets....lucky as they were to have their victory in 1941....the essential failure of Barbarossa in the first year was not due to much of anything done or ordered by STAVKA.....got an article planned that is very critical of Soviet generals, and Zukhov in particular....I wonder if I'll get shouted down over that one!

[Gotthard Heinrici]

Christos, which book of Sven Hassel's are you referencing?

[Gotthard Heinrici]

Originally Posted by Christos

Indeed....LAH were an army joke until their combat performances became known......the training provided to Das Heer's premier division was nothng short of barbarous, as aptly told by GrossDeutschland veteran Guy Sajer in his book "The Forgotten Soldier", a standard read for any Eastern front afficiendo.....and as always, Sven Hassel's books are a constant source of ground roots information ( for instance, that 'Ivan' had his vodka issue day on a THURSDAY.....local commanders tried to time their attacks for vodka issue day, knowing full well the lack of effect all these stoned Soviet soldiers wouyld have for a few hours at least)....little glimpses like that that 'polish' your knowledge.....From the Eastern Front we get some of the most haunting and tragic photographs of all....the look of despair captured on the faces of Russian Army prisoners is particularly disturbing....you know that fewer than 1 in a 1,000 of these wretched and tortured souls ever made it back to the motherland....and wonder what our government might well say and do should we be faced with a similar situation.....do you honestly think the people of most western countries could put up with casualties on the scale of 'Ost-Front' without some kind of social/political backlash?

Totalitarian dictatorships, particularly Stalin's, had a powerful grip on the consciousness of the country.....so strong it had already survived the Purges, and in my view, the Soviet war was dreadfully mis-managed by the Soviets....lucky as they were to have their victory in 1941....the essential failure of Barbarossa in the first year was not due to much of anything done or ordered by STAVKA.....got an article planned that is very critical of Soviet generals, and Zukhov in particular....I wonder if I'll get shouted down over that one!

You wont get shouted down, but you might get refuted!

[Tom Houlihan]

Originally Posted by Gotthard Heinrici

An interesting article about one of the Wehrmacht's most famous formations:

General Overview of Großdeutschland History

I didnt realise that they guarded Hitler too in addition to "Leibstandarte"

If you visit Feldgrau.com - The German Armed Forces 1919-1945 one of the members there was in GD, and he spent some time at the Führerhauptquartier. Rudi Salvermoser is his name.

[Christos]

I've read and/or possessed ALL of Sven Hassels Faction novels.......I cant remember exactly wich book, but I remember the reference, alright....as an impressionable student I had no idea at that stage that women were so effective in the combat role, let alone that German soldiers would FEAR them....

If you look at Sam Peckinpah's Eastern Front film "Cross of Iron", you will see Sargetnt Steiner leaving one of his men behind to the tender mercies of the "shotgun'sluts"........the unfortunate man has just had his ol'feela bitten OFF by these harpies, and Steiner is so disgusted he leaves him behind and shuts the door.....and they rip him to pieces...LITERALLY!

My favourit scene from that film is right at the end

Stiener tells tha medal chasing captain played by Maxamillian Schell, "I will show you where the Iron Crosses grow..."

Max follows Stiener out to do battle at the railway station with the Russian troops there...they are fired upon by a young Soviet 'boy' soldier.......Stiener and Max return fire.....empty their magazines...

The Soviet boy soldier's gun jams........
Max Schells MP42 is out of ammo. "How do you reload this thing?" he gasps to Steiner...
By this time The Soviet boy-soldier has also thrown up his hands in disgust and is pouting at Steiner....

Steiner laughs, and laughs, as the movie fades.........to credit photgraphs of Soviet Partisans being hanged.....

'Cross of Iron' was a truly remarkable film, a genuine attempt by the producers to give you a boots and all look at not only the ground war on the Eastern Front, but the relationships between the different factions present in the German Army at this stage in it's history....

[Christos]

Ahh....just found the Sven Hassel reference....it's from a book I still have called "BLITZFREEZE"

[von Poop]

I have a soft spot for Sven Hassel too Christos.
But 'faction' is not an accurate description, you really can't base any discussion of the actual events of the War on them. Do a search on his name here and he crops up a few times, you'll see what people have said already. To an extent the same is true of Sajer, 'Forgotten Soldier' is an excellent read but it does appear to be a novel rather than an accurate recollection of the war in Russia.

Cheers,
Adam.

[Gotthard Heinrici]

Of the Hassel Books it is acknowledged that "Wheels of Terror" would be the one nearest to reality because it describes the fate of most of the squad. But the rest I would be skeptical of.

[Christos]

Actually, Sajer's book reads like a diary......another genuine veteran of the Eastern Front, who, like Sven Hassel, had forgotten more about his experiances than he ever wrote.....

Sajer is actually quoted as a primary source because he only has ONE book to his name.......I tend to take a book like that at face value, principally because there is no reason for lies from these men...they freely admit to atrocities and forms ofd behaviour that most of us would consider barbarous....

I've actuall spoken personally with a German veteran or two....

One , whose nephew I met on a train travelling across the Nevada Desert , a man called Karl , ( German-American).....I have lost hisd number, but basically he told me that if I had sufficient time and money, he could introduce me to Eastern Front German veterans groups, even SS...and I would see for myself that these people were not monsters...but just people with a job that their government said had to be done, and that the majority of believed in because it WAS their job...

Anyhow....ALL veterans and their writings can be a source of information......this partiucula front of WW2 is such an ENIGMA....

I waste nothing as a source....

And I'll not base anything on books like those described above as primary sources...

But background they are very handy for!....

Thanks for your thread!