Joachim Peiper in 1940

[von Poop]

Originally Posted by Rich Payne

+

I quite agree and I would like to see that link deleted. Clearly a website operated by sympathisers of the bastards.

Having read the 'committed war crimes' page I mostly agree with DB & Rich.
It's hard enough trying to look at the SS seriously in a military historical sense without this strange 'Barbara Cartland for the Third Reich' style that seems to be favoured by many of their hagiographers.
It's a shame as I wouldn't call the site overtly Nazi, perhaps somewhat 'overenthusiastic', and it's got some good solid looking info on it, but I can't hack that apologist style that makes the whole thing somewhat suspect.

I do feel that Peiper was one of the most interesting and effective military 'personalities' of the war, fascinating even, but, no disrespect to Owen, I will trim the direct link but leave the site's title.
(It comes out very high on Google anyway if you search for the man... anyone got a link that's equally thorough but not quite so biased?).

Cheers,
Adam.

[Rich Payne]

Thanks Adam for dealing with it in a more adult way than I did (but then you have to, it's your job !)

[Owen]

Sorry chaps for causing offence, I only saw the bit I wanted to, ie the 1940 action.
I didn't read anymore of the site.
I apologise .

[deadb_tch]

Originally Posted by Von Poop

It's a shame as I wouldn't call the site overtly Nazi, perhaps somewhat 'overenthusiastic', and it's got some good solid looking info on it, but I can't hack that apologist style that makes the whole thing somewhat suspect.

Yep, agree that site is loaded with info but the way it is showing this info very suspicious, maybe it is more 'overenthusiastic' then 'near ideological'.
Have to say that personally I have strong interest in SS and Waffen SS (have good foreign books, too lazy to get into bookshelf to show its names, sorry, maybe a bit later) because of many rumours, legends and other stuff surroungind this orgs, but clearly realising what they have done in war even that not each of its members have hands over in blood.

Anyway, thnx Adam for standing on the way of bright side

[deadb_tch]

Originally Posted by Owen D

Sorry chaps for causing offence, I only saw the bit I wanted to, ie the 1940 action.
I didn't read anymore of the site.
I apologise .

Sorry for my strange sense of humor, but u looks like u were captured when reading 'Mein Kampf' and saying 'I've only read the title and authors name, nothing more'.

Sorry, I didn't want to offence u just late evening humor ))

PS: it seems that we r too captious about that site but it is better see nothing

[soren1941]

Originally Posted by Harry Ree

Soren are you saying that any excesses carried out by Allied troops approached those of the Axis Powers?.

Hi,

No, apologies if this is not apparent, just saying that war is war and frightful things happen on all sides, history is after all written by the victors, what do we not know about?

Mass murder is different, this is what the Germans and the Japaneese carried out, I was refering to the odd battlefield breach of the Geneva Convention.

Soz

[Harry Ree]

Originally Posted by soren1941

Hi,

No, apologies if this is not apparent, just saying that war is war and frightful things happen on all sides, history is after all written by the victors, what do we not know about?

Mass murder is different, this is what the Germans and the Japaneese carried out, I was refering to the odd battlefield breach of the Geneva Convention.

Soz

Soren,

You are quite right, excesses do happen in the dynamics of war.It has always occurred and it does depend on the discipline and guidance given by the military leadership of both sides.But if political/military leadership offers at best a laissez-faire attitude or as in the case of the SS and Waffen SS were indoctrined that the opposite side/races were "untermenchen", and there was no likelihood of military charges being taken against the perpretators,then there is no surprise that atrocities were the norm rather than the exception.

In the East, the Nazi organisations such as Waffen SS were used to a situation where they could take the most severe personal initiatives against either military or civilians.When the same units were engaged against the Western forces there was still this arrogance based on Russian experience.

No doubt some of those involved in these atrocities were regarded as heroes among their ilk, but it must be remembered what an evil and destructive regime the Allies were fighting against and aiming to destroy.These people were part of that regime and their actions in the field reflected the doctrine that had been invested in them.

Furthermore, post war, many were still dedicated Nazis, still believers in the edicts of National Socialism.Pieper himself was a dedicated Nazi and remained one to the end.Not surprising he was, he was very close to Himmler and served almost a year after the Battle for France as an Adjutant to Himmler and would be party to Himmler's vision for the East,both in the policy towards the Slavs and what was to happen at Auschwitz.No doubt his personal motivation was to prove himself worthy of his SS runes.

I think for any Briton seeing these people as "heroes" should understand what Peipers organisation had in store for the British had these islands fell.The policy for the British people to be managed by the SS intellectual,Six, was that all males between 16 and 45 would have been deported to Germany for forced labour and given the Nazi record in Europe, it could have been far worse.

I would think had this happened, there are many who contribute to this forum would not be here.

[Owen]

When the same units were engaged against the Western forces there was still this arrogance based on Russian experience.

SS units started murdering Allied POWs in the 1940 campaign.
Starting in Holland.

[Harry Ree]

SS/Waffen SS outrages were committed from the outbreak of war starting with the campaign in Poland.British units had the same treatment at Woudhoult (Mohnke) and at Le Paradis (Knochlein) during the battle for France in 1940.

I was stressing that those SS/Waffen SS units having experience on the Eastern Front treated the enemy,both military and civilian alike based on their experience with the Slav"untermenchen".

Reporting to their Wehrmacht superiors for battlefied operations, they were not reponsible to the Wehrmacht for their behavior in the field.This area of discipline and regulation rested with Himmler.He was the man who motivated them to meet the requirements of their SS runes.Overall they could carry out excesses without any reference to the Wehrmacht structure in the field.There are few instances recorded where a Wehrmacht superior got satisfaction from a complaint he made to higher authorities, regarding an excess by the SS/Waffen SS.

Incidentally, where were the atrocities in Holland in 1940 when the country was being overrun by the Germans.Did the Dutch take legal action on these atrocities,post war?

[soren1941]

And there was the Katyin(?) massacre when they killed all the poles, not sure if that was SS or Ruskie tho