St Nazaire - Futile Heroism?

[Warlord]

Sounds to me like a way of saving face in view of a lot of screwups... Too bad it was based upon sacrificing a lot of men and a priceless monument of civilization.

[Tom Canning]

Warlord -
I suppose after 64 years it's easy to see many of the "screw ups" in the Italain campaign but the biggest to my mind was the total lack of a plan of any sort - whereas San Nazaire was very good plan -

one of the early screw ups was Clark's pulling the French back from near Altina to reinforce the failng 34th Division - had he reinforced the success of the French, then the tale might have been much different with thousands of casualties saved.

regarding the loss of the priceless monument - true many mosaics and frescoes could not be saved but - it appears that the Abbey is better than it was ...
have a look at this account ...
'
BBC - WW2 People's War - The Abbey at Montecassino

[Warlord]

Well, so it seems, although at the time, it meant the victory of evil over good.

Now, going back to Chariot: What was it that went so wrong? Was it too tight a plan, or were there execution flaws?

[Tom Canning]

Warlord -
Probably too far to go under enemy guns - can't really depend on all the sentries being asleep - there is alway one smarty pants !

[Warlord]

But, wasn´t there going to be an air raid to cover the approach of the convoy? Bad timing?

[Drew5233]

Apologies if someone has already mentioned it (I confess to only reading around half the thread).

I watched a programme about this yesterday called Great Raids of WW2 and there was a planned air raid just prior to the attack but unfortunately this did more damage by way of alerting the Germans.

As for the Normandie Dry Dock I would suggest that it wasn't a futile mission since there was clear evidence in the way of aerial recce photographs showing the Germans attempting to repair the dock for some time after it was destroyed to no avail.

I suspect even if they never had any intention of using it I bet they wanted it there for a just in case moment. After all the Bismark was heading there when she was damaged so whats to say that if the Tirpitz went into the Atlantic she wouldn't need it at some point.

Around 400 Germans were killed and it was 1947 before the dock could be used again.

I found some great pictures on bundesarchiv. If anyone knows the names of the POW's feel free to PM me with the rank and name and I'll add them to the post.

POW's

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With hindsight it appears to me to be quite obvious why they all have smiles on their faces - I wonder if the Germans were curious as to why they appeared to be so happy?

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[Drew5233]

The Wounded

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[Drew5233]

The Ultimate Sacrifice

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[James S]

The poor lad in the kilt later died from his wounds , good photos Andy - good propaganda at the time for the Germans but today a priceless record of the men who didn't make it home.
Was the raid worth it - like the Dams raid , was it worth it ?
Ron made the point that hindsight and looking back works against us - you can only view the raid within the context of the time and a war , the out come of which was far from certain.
It was certainly something the Kriegsmarine never saw coming, it must have left them feeling very insecure inspite of all the concrete poured around the docks.

BBC made an excellent documentery about the rais which I wish they would show again - I have it on VHS and really should take a look at it again - the men who took part at that time in their 60's , so many of them now gone.

[Owen]

Well found that man.
Some excellent photos there.
Rather long hair some of them?
That's an excellent shot of the chap in the kilt, is he the chap being discussed on the 'kilts' thread?
Wondering if that's Forbes tartan?