St Nazaire - Futile Heroism?

[Bart150]

What do you think of the following argument?

In 1942 the Germans had no intention of using the Tirpitz in the Atlantic. They preferred to keep her on the Norwegian coast.

This strategy may seem timid but there was a lot to be said for it.

Therefore the Germans had no use for the great dock at St Nazaire.

When the British raid wrecked the dock, the Germans could just shrug their shoulders. The dock had no place in their plans anyway.

Therefore the heroism and sacrifice of that raid was pointless.


It's a very uncomfortable conclusion, but might it just be correct?

[Mark Hone]

Sadly, much (even most) heroism in war could be dismissed as futile if you only look at the particular event in isolation. The Zeebrugge Raid in 1918 is another obvious example.

[marcus69x]

I remember thinking similar thoughts whilst watching the programme. That it seemed a terrible risk of loosing troops just so the ship had nowhere to be repaired. I don't know why they couldn't just blitz the thing while out at sea.

I wouldn't call it futile heroism though.

[Gage]

I don't know much about the Navy side of the war. But didn't the Tirpitz and other German Navy vessels keep a lot of the Royal Navy tied down at Scapa Flow?
And the Tirpitz could cause devestation out at sea on the Merchant Navy and convoys.

[Bart150]

The point, Gage, is that the Germans could choose between:
- keep the Tirpitz in Norway; for certain, thereby tie down a couple of British capital ships (which was as good as sinking them) - at relatively low risk
- or send the Tirpitz to the high seas, hope to cause devastation there, but run the risk of suffering the fate of the Bismarck.
It wouldn't be surprising if they preferred the first strategy. If so, they would never need the dock at St Nazaire.

[cash_13]

Well if what you say was correct then why did Hitler get so incensed that he ordered all Commando's it be shot that were captured in the future

[von Poop]

Originally Posted by cash_13

then why did Hitler get so incensed that he ordered all Commando's it be shot that were captured in the future

Because nutters don't like having their shiny captured toys broken by big brave men in heavy boots... ?

[Gage]

Originally Posted by Bart150

The point, Gage, is that the Germans could choose between:
- keep the Tirpitz in Norway; for certain, thereby tie down a couple of British capital ships (which was as good as sinking them) - at relatively low risk
- or send the Tirpitz to the high seas, hope to cause devastation there, but run the risk of suffering the fate of the Bismarck.
It wouldn't be surprising if they preferred the first strategy. If so, they would never need the dock at St Nazaire.

I suppose hindsight is a wonderful thing. The Germans wouldn't have left the Tirpitz in Norway forever and Churchill couldn't take the chance.
And why did the RAF go to so much trouble to sink the Tirpitz with a tall boy?

[Harry Ree]

This operation prevented the option of the Normandie Dry Dock being used for the Tirpitz.Germany, as in the Great War was virtually land locked as regards capital battleships gaining access to the high seas.The decision to be constantly aware of the whereabouts of the Kreigsmarine capital battleships and to take action to prevent their use on the high seas was a British priority in waging the war against Nazi Germany.

When Great Britain could not prevent this happenng, the Kreigsmarine had temporary command of the North Sea in June 1940 when the RN and the RAF suffered badly from a mauling by the Scharnhorst.It did not happen again.

The alternative point is that St Nazaire could possibily have been heavily bombed but having said that, there was not sufficient evidence that the RAF could deliver precise bombing of the Normandie Dry Dock at this time.The operation did cause Hitler to maintain adequate troops to man the Atlantic Wall.

It was the result of the series of small scale raids that Hitler made his irational order regarding the execution of Allied POWs captured on these raids in uniform or not. Kietel signed and issued the executive instruction on behalf of Hitler which was to prove his death sentence at Nuremberg.

[DaveW53]

A total of 74 British decorations, including 5 VC's, plus 4 French Croix de Guerres resulted from the St. Nazaire action. The raid cost Britain 169 killed and some 200 prisoners.

The aim of the Tirpitz, like its sister ship the Bismarck, was commerce raider. The Bismarck in a single action engaged the new battleship Prince of Wales, and the battlecruiser Hood. The Hood was destroyed with a loss of over 1,400 lives. The Bismarck, also damaged, initially headed for St. Nazaire, the only port under German control where repairs were possible. Hence the fear of Tirpitz and the desire to deny the ship's only refuge.

Read a comprehensive avvount here:
Raid on St. Nazaire: Operation Chariot During World War II » HistoryNet - From the World's Largest History Magazine Publisher