Omaha beach

[sapper]

One of the friends mentioned luck in war....Amen to that... also it is sometimes forgotten that war is a two sided thing. We have two sides. Reading some of the postings, it would appear that we should win every battle, and the enemy slink away. Its just not like that...Ever!

War ebbs and flows, sometimes you make an attack, and virtually walk in, another time in that same place a horrific blood letting could easily take place.

That happened at "The Bloodiest Square Mile in Normandy" We walked in, but then it developed into a hand to hand bloodbath of complete and utter savagery. No quarter asked or given.....

Another example of pure savagery was Le Bisley wood, North of Caen. the British Tommies and the German Panzer Grenadiers set about each other with such brutal hand to hand fighting that they killed each other. When we arrived, the Germans and the British were laying just where they had died, their bodies mixed uo where they had been killing each other hand to hand.. a pretty dreadful sight to see these enemies bodies, piled up on each other.
Sapper

[angie999]

I think there is some confusion about "Hobart's funnies".

Apart from the Sherman DD's, which the American forces did use, many of the other designs, such as flail tanks, AVRE's, etc. were not special for D-day. They were used on D-day, but continued in use for the rest of the campaign. In fact, from them has descended further generations of speciast armour, mainly engineer equipment, which is in service today.

[Kiwiwriter]

Sapper, I know how you feel about the historical errors. They enrage me, too. Here in America, schoolteachers still spout the myth that Columbus proved the world was round. That canard was invented by Washington Irving for that noblest of purposes: to sell his book, which was humor. But everyone took it seriously, and schoolteachers have been inflicting it for all time. I have run into people who don't know who Churchill and Goering are. The sheer amount of misinformation that is dispensed about history is incredible. There's a column on my web page about it.

[Gotthard Heinrici]

Originally posted by sapper@Nov 9 2004, 02:38 PM
May I (Without prejudice) offer this, as a main reason why they suffered so badly on Omaha? Despite the losses of the DD tanks they needed, there were two vital elements missing from the American landings.
The first, but in my opinion, not the most important, was the refusal of the Americans to make use of “Hobarts Funnies” to assist the landings.

But, what I think was of the greatest importance was the lack of “highly specialised Sapper teams” tasked with the vitally important job of removing anything that stood in the way….. No matter who, or what… and also to provide a mine free passage off the beach to the lateral road that ran parallel with the beach.

The reason why so many young Americans were killed, it seems to me, was this lack of small, but highly trained assault teams. That element was missing. For in the end they forced a way off the beach, but not before a massacre had taken place….With those teams it would have been the initial task, no matter what, to open up the Enemy defences.

It has often been said that Sword Beach was easy…That is just not so. I can provide all the proof that is needed for that statement.
Sapper.. A member of the Royal Engineers Company that provided the three assault teams that opened up the path from the beach to the road beyond, on “Sword” Queen Red, and Queen White, sectors without letting anyone get in the way.

I am not trying in any way to belittle my American friends, for I fought alongside them. And I might add, Factual History in the cold hard light of day, is so often, completely different from the Hollywood versions, for they tend to cloud what actually occured.
Sapper

Quoted post

I would agree with Sapper that the impression given is that the British beaches are always portrayed as "quieter" than the US Beaches and this is not the case. And even in the fighting inland the British and Canadians faced tougher line fomrations than the US did. But it was a joint effort. And both armies worked together towards a common end.

[sapper]

Nowhere...But Nowhere! was there such a concentration of defence in depth as there was facing Sword, The other landings had nothing approachimg the massive defence positions inland from Sword. If you question that statement? have a look at the maps..."Hillman" alone stood 650 meters by 450 meters in size, Massive.
Brian

[Kiwiwriter]

Originally posted by sapper@Mar 9 2005, 10:57 AM
Nowhere...But Nowhere! was there such a concentration of defence in depth as there was facing Sword, The other landings had nothing approachimg the massive defence positions inland from Sword. If you question that statement? have a look at the maps..."Hillman" alone stood 650 meters by 450 meters in size, Massive.
Brian

Quoted post

Sapper, you know this better than I do, of course, but if memory serves, Hillman and the other strongpoints codenamed for British cars were still holding out at the end of D-Day. One of them was the fortified Luftwaffe radar station/control post at Douvres, which is now a museum of both the Atlantic Wall and German radar. So that speaks to the determination with which the 716th held out in their bunkers. The 716th was not the best division in the German Army, and certainly not mobile, but it had plenty of bunkers and firepower, and the Germans, being good engineers, knew how to prepare a static position. None of the D-Day beaches were "easy" or jokes. In fact, the more I study World War II, the less humor I can find in the fighting. Which is probably why the men who fought it relied so much on humor in all of its incarnations, simply as a means of surviving unbelievable horrors, as any Bill Mauldin cartoon (or "Two Types" cartoon) would show.

[sapper]

No Kiwi. Hillman was taken on D day, the way in to this massive posr was provided by Lt Arthur Heal Croix De Geurre, of my company, 246 Field RE, who being invited by the Commander of 1st Suffolks.

"In the nicest possible way" to open up a path through the massive defences,

Arthur Heal with a few other Sappers, lay on their bellies, and worked their way through the enemy defences under very heavy fire, eventualy creating a "Sheep track" through, then opened up another wide enough for tanks, it is not generally Known, I dont think? but the Hillman was defeated by the efforts of Arthur Heal and his brave little band under a heavy onslaught of cross fire. The Sappers got MMs not much of a reward for being responsible for the taking of Hillman!

Two years ago, I spoke to Arthur Heal on the phone, the last I heard? he is still going strong. I also found my old Platoon officer would you believe? he is Major "Digger" Trench, keeps me up to date with what and who, every christmas.,now there is another brave officer.

Stop me before I get cramp! So much pure drivel is written about those times with not the faintest or tenuous link with the truth.
Sapper

[angie999]

The fact remains that the delays caused at Hillman and Morris are one of the more important causes of the failure to begin the advance on Caen early enough on D-day, with all the consequent problems on the British front.

[sapper]

If you dont mind me saying so Angie, that is a comlete distortion. Morris packed it in double quick time..No trouble. Allover just like that! Hillman I have already written about.
What is not realised, was the size of Hillman, it was huge area of concrete bunkers, of artillery all over the place, deep underground tunnels and passages, the size at that time was enormous, all covered with barbed wire, and sown thick with mines of every description.

What did make it difficult was that not one shell or bomb had landed on it.

Just try to imagine an area of heavily armed defences some 650 meters by 450 meters. a huge area. tackled and opened up by our Officer, Arthur Heal.

What you see of Hillman today bears little relation to its original size.

At the time there was the story of a Sapper laying on his back, shuffling along under the wire towards one of the concrete gun positions, on his chest, a pound block of gun cotton, with a primer, a detonator, and a bit of black safety fuse.

When he got right up close, he lit the safety fuse with his cigarette, waited a second and then shoved it through the rectagular gun window, over his head and backwards, a pound of gun cotton exploding inside an enclosed area would spread the occupants around the walls like jam.

What stopped the drive towards Caen was getting the armour off the beaches.
Sapper

[angie999]

Oh, I understand the problems with Hillman, but none the less the time and forces committed were not allowed for in the plan.

Getting armour off the beach was part of the problem, I agree, but the infantry component of the armoured brigade were never going to be enough for the task and it depended on 3 Div infantry following up, which happened late and without adequate pace due to the holdups.