Market Garden

[dbf]

Lee,
I basically don't understand the reason for your question.

Is this simply about the command decision not to use Roberts, or is this a preface to an argument for Cromwells v Shermans & WG v 2BnIG?

dbf

[4th wilts]

it seems the guards a/d seem to fight not as any other british a/d.i do not entirely understand why it fought differently.armd recon regts by their makeup,reconoiter any division.was m.g any different.lee.

[4th wilts]

is it not true the welsh guards,advanced 100miles in a day,perhaps they as armd recon may have found the enemy earlier,and then continud up to arnhem,leaving the rest of g.a.d to engage said german positions.lee.

[4th wilts]

am in no way trying to undermine the irish guards achievements.but just looking back,trying to understand the tactics used and why 11tha/d,after crossing the seine,was indeed fighting in xxx corps under horrocks.no arguing meant either.yours,lee.

[dbf]

Lee,
I just lost my reply and am having to retype it.
No offence taken.

I have no opinion to offer on the matter of WG - simply put I don't know. IG were given the honour by Horrocks...

As for rushing ahead with Cromwells well I have plenty of opinion on that, but it boils down to this...I don't believe it would have changed anything.


Diane

[4th wilts]

it seems the guards a/d fought differently than the others did.the armd bde of the div,usually had 3 armd regts,and a motorised inf battn eg.grenadier guards armd,coldstream guards armd and irish guards armd.the motor inf batt was the grenadier guards.the rest of the div would follow giving support.but in m.g both the 2nd armd irish gds and the 3rd irish gds,were up front.was it just because of a narrow front.lee.

[craftsmanx]

Hindsight is indeed a wonderful thing, The Market Garden plan was a risky one and no-one can dispute that but every plan is risky because unfortunately the enemy normally refuse to comply with ones plan. It is so easy to sit in front of a PC ,as most writers do, and disect operations but they always ignore "the fog od war". As an ex infantryman I can assure you that in most cases the men on the ground have little knowledge of what is happening anywhere that they can't see. The major problem with Market Garden was that the allies had a run of bad luck. Poor intelligence is in fact bad luck, one doesn't go to a supermarket and buy a bag of intelligence, normally intelligence is "bitty" and very often contradictory and someone had to make educated guesses as to which bits are correct and which bits aren't. All it would have needed for Market Garden to be a success was a bit of luck but unfortunately all the luck went the German's way. Playing computer games and reading old reports does not replicate war, in fact nothing replicates war.

[4th wilts]

do we know how the g.a.d fought in other battles dispositions,etc,goodwood perhaps,or the breakout after the rhine crossing,lee.

[dbf]

Lee,
Bear with me am typing this from book..

Operation Goodwood:
History IG WWII, pg 373

To 2Bn -
"We are to leave our present harbour area - ST. Martin des Entrees - this evening, drive thirty miles east, halt about day-break to fill up with petrol, have breakfast and rest, cross bridges over the Orne about half-past ten and follow the 11th Armd Div to Cagny, where they lead straight on and we turn left. Within the GA Brigade, the 2nd Grenadiers will lead to Cagny, with the 1st Coldstream on the right and ourselves on the left behind them; from Cagny the 1st Coldstream will lead to Vimont with ourselves in support. Within the Bn, the order of march is No 3 Sqn, No 2 Sqn, HQ Sqn and No 1 Sqn. The 3 Bn will be just behind us at the beginning and will come up to join us when we have taken Vimont."

dbf

[Paul Reed]

Lee your comments about the GAD recce unit make no sense. At the start of Market Garden, GAD were attacking an entrenched enemy; their dispositions were known, and it would require a Battle Group with air support to shift them. You don't use recce units to do that; by their nature that is not what they are there for.