El Alamein

[spidge]

Originally Posted by spidge

The 9th took Tobruk supported by British Artillery and tanks and the same combination held it against as great odds as have been faced by any garrison in history.

Something here did not sound true and I just remembered what it was.

The 9th division did not take Tobruk. This feat went to my fathers Australian 6th division with British Artillery and tanks.

After completing its initial training in Australia, the UK and Palestine, the 9th Division was sent to Cyrenaica in Libya in early March 1941 to complete its training and equipping as part of the garrison of this region. When the German-led Axis forces launched an offensive, on March 24, the Allied forces were not sufficiently prepared for action and they were quickly driven out of Cyrenaica, an event nicknamed the "BenghaziHandicap" by the Australians. The division suffered relatively light casualties in this retreat and was fortunate to escape without severe loss.

However their reputation was such that the following was said of them:

"My God, I wish we had [the] 9th Australian Division with us this morning." Major-General Freddie de Guingand, Chief of Staff, Allied Land-force Headquarters Europe, D-Day, 1944.

[Desert Dog]

I agree that both Operations Compass and Crusader were much greater victories. In both of these the 8th Army reached El Agheila and only stopped to get their logistics to catch up. But instead of getting reinforced they lost both material and manpower to other places. That was not the case after El Alamein.

More to the point, Rommel was forced to retreat as a second front was opened up by Torch.

I wonder how Monty would have held up if Rommel got reinforced and counter attacked?

As for Churchill, as great of a war time leader as he was, his micro management of the North African campaign was a disaster. Resuplied and reinforced, O'Connor could have stopped Rommel and marched to Tunisia in early 1941 (assuming that his driver would not have gotten lost and gotten captured)

[ADM199]

Attempts were constantly made to resupply Rommel but the efforts were thwarted by attacks by submarine and by air. All this was orchestrated by information coming from Ultra Intelligence. Essential reading ADM223/31 intelligence summeries on Italian shipping movements. We broke into the Italian codes mid 1941 and were very well informed regarding what was moving anywhere in the Mediterranean.

[2nd ches]

Battlefields EL ALAMIEN

A BBC video in five parts( each approx ten minutes long)
part 1
LiveLeak.com - Battlefields El Alamein- Part 1 of 5

part 2
LiveLeak.com - Battlefields El Alamein- Part 2 of 5

part 3
LiveLeak.com - Battlefields El Alamein- Part 3 of 5 redux

part 4
LiveLeak.com - Battlefields El Alamein- Part 4 of 5

part 5
LiveLeak.com - Battlefields El Alamein- Part 5 of 5

A note of caution if anyone starts searching, Liveleak has a lot of uncensored current conflict videos on its site from all "sides". Still its an excellent site.

[4th wilts]

many new battle tactics and cmmanders rose from this seminal battle.conningham was thought to be the new tactical airforce wonderman.however air vice marshal harry broadhurst was the man who started the low level attacks on jerry,which led to the cab rank system of no83 grp r.a.f in n.w europe.his service has never really been commented upon.conningham never attacked below 20,000ft.lee

[GUMALANGI]

Al Alamein,. is my all time favourite battle, very classic example of two opposite opponents,.. Rommel,. always on the move,.. fast and furious,. however monty on the other side,.. a well calculated player,. he wont move unless victory is assured,. at least as it was said,.. until the market garden

i once read the perspective written by Bayerlein,. and the other one by fraser,.. very interesting,..

[freebird]

Originally Posted by Desert Dog

As for Churchill, as great of a war time leader as he was, his micro management of the North African campaign was a disaster. Resuplied and reinforced, O'Connor could have stopped Rommel and marched to Tunisia in early 1941 (assuming that his driver would not have gotten lost and gotten captured)

Yes and his meddling with the Royal Navy as a "former Naval person" led directly to the force Z fiasco in the Gulf of Siam (Repulse, P of W)

[4th wilts]

i believe monty wanted 2nz div in 21st army group,along with 50div,51st hd and 7ad,but alas i do not know why this superb,motorised div stayed in italy.politics me thinks.yours,4th wilts.

[redcoat]

Originally Posted by handtohand22

''Before Alamein we never had a victory. After Alamein we never had a defeat". Churchill

I hate that quote. It is very inaccurate.

Very true, but that's because its a misquote.
The actual words Churchill used were
"Before Alamein we had almost no victories, After Alamein we had no defeats"

[Desert Dog]

To be fair, after Alamein they also had Torch and the Allied resolve that their target was the soft underbelly of Europe.

Before Alamein the only resolve seemed to be keeping the Hun out of Egypt.