Dunkirk

[handtohand22]

What stopped the Germans from turning Dunkirk into a Killing Field?

Many did die. But those straight lines of retreating troops must have been easy targets.

There should have been much more destruction.

Originally Posted by handtohand22

What stopped the Germans from turning Dunkirk into a Killing Field?

Many did die. But those straight lines of retreating troops must have been easy targets.

There should have been much more destruction.

What I have read from the German's perspective is that Goering wanted to give the destruction to the Luftwaffe as a reward. Weather set in and the Brits managed to escape. Sometimes I wonder if "coincidences" like these are not the divine hand of God intervening. There are some really strange ones with the Japanese scout planes at Midway. Makes you think.

[von Poop]

There's another thread on "what if britain and germany became allies" that has some bearing on this., just whacking in my tuppenceworth from there:-

[Rundstedt's order to halt was (At that point in the war) most unusual in it's specific confirmation by Hitler, I tend towards the view that this was a point when Hitler was most seriously considering how to come to peace with Great Britain. However Goering had promised Hitler that he could Utterly destroy The withdrawing troops from the air so was it a question of making peace or trusting an old comrade (while elated at the current success of the grand plan) and at the same time preserving valuable materiel?]

It also seems to me that the ferocious counterattack by Matildas shortly beforehand at arras has some significance as it was one of the earliest actions of the war where the Germans recieved a truly significant bloody nose, raising their concerns about loss of materiel. Being forced to use high velocity AA guns in an AT role must have sent shivers through the staff.
(Nice little potted account from both sides at: http://mr-home.staff.shef.ac.uk/hobbies/arras.txt)

[plant-pilot]

I agree with the view that "this was a point when Hitler was most seriously considering how to come to peace with Great Britain", but not with the view that Hitler in any way 'Trusted' Goering. He knew him for what he was, a has-been fighter pilot who no matter how flamboyant was a political ally.

It may also be possible that such an evacuation was not envisaged and there was no real urgency. The British and French were as good as defeated and there was no reason to risk ground forces in chasing them into the sea.

The fact that the British managed to pull such a sucessful escape plan out of nowhere was as much a surprise to the British as it was to the Germans.

True. But why would the Germans make a quick attack on a retreating army when they truly believed they had time to organise something a bit more focused and nasty? Take your time and do the job properly, kind of thing. As it was the Navy managed to pull together a hodge-podge of rescue vessles and got a hell of a lot of men off the beaches. Added to this were those volunteers who styed behind to slow down the advancing german forces at a cost to their own lives, to give their comrades a chance to get away. it's amazing what a man who has decided to die can do. I certainly wouldn't want to go up against a man with nothing to lose.
I think someone was looking down on the BEF on those few days.

[Gage]

It was probably one of the few times when you could call a defeat, a victory. How many men were evac? Was it 330,000?

What I had read in a Luftwaffe book was that they were scheduled to bomb Dunkirk but the weather would not cooperate and it even allowed the British to escape without detection because of the cloud cover. I can't say that's right but it was written seriously. The idea of Hitler suing for peace is certainly plausible as I read in his biography that he preferred not to attack Britain. But the two seem like they are in conflict. There very well could be a little truth in both of them. How long does it take to offer peace? Does anyone know if this was proffered?

[Gage]

There are probably a number of reasons.
The way Hitler regarded the UK and the fact that Goring wanted the Luftwaffe to finish the job, and he said that they could.

On another note. I know that RAF pilots were slated in pubs and in the street by the Army for not protecting the evac from the air afterwards. However, the RAF were there but fighting further in land, away from eyes on the beaches. I think there was quite alot of resentment from the Army towards the Brylcream Boys. Maybe Sapper would know more about this.

[spidge]

There should have been more destruction however from what I have read over the years there were the two physical aspects and of course the theoretical.

The theoretical is that Hitler wished for a peace settlement and was enveloping Dunkirk to ensure that when he did put forward the proposal the British would receive the nod from the British command at Dunkirk that the situation was hopeless ensuring a total capitulation of the BEF and others and his wish for the surrender of Britain guaranteed.

The physical is in three parts:

(1) Logistical: The Germans were running short of fuel, ammunition and other supplies and needed to replenish before the next phase of the operation whatever that may be.

(2) Weather: The weather reports were less than encouraging for total air cover to support the push and a "halt" was ordered to wait for an improvement as Dunkirk was surrounded and they were not going anywhere. By th 4th of June the Luftwaffe had sunk 13 destroyers (6 RN & 7 French) alone with 19 badly damaged.

(3) Breakout: Even though there was a wish to push through and destroy the force completely, there was a worry in some quarters that a full assault without full provisioning could result in a breakout with half of the Germans themselves being surrounded. (I do not like posting info I cannot support, but for the life of me I cannot find this detailed summation I had read that this was considered plausible).

Time was therefore on the side of the Germans as you just do not allow the possibility that 800 craft can come across the channel and assist in plucking 350,000 men from a beach.

Dunkirk's evacuation through Operation Dynamo gave encouragement to Britain to continue the fight and was virtually publicised as a victory.

NB:

With Dunkirk's evacuation ending on the 4th of June, Britain set about evacuating the rest of the forces in France which is not very well publicised then and not really well known now.

10th - The evacuation of British and Allied forces from the rest of France gets underway. Starting with Operation 'Cycle', 11,000 are lifted off from the Channel port of Le Havre.

15th - Operation 'Aerial' begins with the evacuation of Cherbourg and continues for the next 10 days, moving south right down to the Franco-Spanish border.

17th - The only major loss during the evacuation from western France is off St Nazaire. The liner “Lancastria” is bombed and sunk with the death of nearly 3,000 men.

25th - The Allied evacuation of France ends with a further 215,000 servicemen and civilians saved, but Operations 'Aerial' and 'Cycle' never capture the public's imagination like the 'miracle' of Dunkirk.

Nearly 600,000 repatriated to Britain to fight another day.

Luck or intervention?

Good Lord, i had never heard of the other evacs. Thanks for that Spidge.
As to Hitler suign for peace at the same time as allowing the Luftwaffe to plan the destruction of the BEF, it's possible he was planning on both of them.
After the Dams raids germany had a complete Upkeep bomb from one of the crashes, they worked it out in record time and were preparing to build their own to use against us when Hitler changed his mind. Imagine the devestation if the dams above Sheffield or Manchester had been breached? Hitler was not the most stable of personalities even this early in the war.
Kitty