The Sixth Army Sacrificed at Stalingrad?

[kfz]

Do you buy this, Did hitler abandon the Sixth Army ay Stalingrad. Even at the time is was marked as the turning point of the whole war.

Did Hilter really believe that stopping the sixth army breaking out back to the front lines and believing Goering's claims to 500 tons a day or did he have some other plan in that sacrficing the southern front and the 6th Army he could draw the Soviets away from Moscow and win the war??

I just cant beleive Hitler was a, stupid enough to beleive Goering and B preperarded to risk the whole war without a major prize. It really wasnt a major stroke of stagegic thinking by Stalin The Manstein new the pincer was comming, Why the Gemrans invented encirclement. Stalin was playing Hitler at his own game. Why didnt they do something??? I didnt know but the sixth Army waited patiently for order to break out that never came and the half hearted attempt to releive it never came to anything.

It was a plot I tell you!!!

Kev

[morse1001]

Hard to say if it was a plot or not. hitler gave the order for no retreat and therefore Paulus was put in a serious prediciment. Hitler put pressure on him by making him a field marshall, as no previous German field marshall had surrendered to the enemy.

[drgslyr]

Hitler was just a bad strategist. To him, losing ground meant losing the battle, and he maintained the view that holding ground to the end was the best means of holding back the enemy. None of his generals could convince him otherwise, and imho, I believe that had Hitler stopped interfering, Germany would have won the war.

[lancesergeant]

Correct me if I am wrong I don't know if it was Stalingrad or Leningrad, but wasn't a general promised 500+tons supplies/a day. Goering's adjutant knew it couldn't be done, Goering in ga ga land promised these supplies, but knew he didn't have the planes. Goering's adjutant knew there was no way to supply the troops but said nothing. This must have been a major contributing factor to the fall of Leningrad/ Stalingrad. Neither of them had the balls or the conscience.

[lancesergeant]

Originally Posted by drgslyr

Hitler was just a bad strategist. To him, losing ground meant losing the battle, and he maintained the view that holding ground to the end was the best means of holding back the enemy. None of his generals could convince him otherwise, and imho, I believe that had Hitler stopped interfering, Germany would have won the war.

He exposed his lack of strategem a number of times. I don't think with Hitler out of the way, that Germany would have won the war. If anything I think there would have been a hardcore wanting to fight on , but ultimately I think the old guard would have sued for peace, sooner rather than later.

[gotham]

Originally Posted by kfz

Did Hilter really believe that stopping the sixth army breaking out back to the front lines and believing Goering's claims to 500 tons a day

Göring apparently based his claim on similar encirclement and Luftwaffe resupply experiences during the end of the winter of '41 at Demyansk and Kholm. See:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demyansk_Pocket

[Gotthard Heinrici]

I dont buy that for one minute - It would be extremely unwise to sacrifice the Wehrmacht's biggest and possibly most prestigious formation simply to draw away Russians from Moscow. No-one on the Wehrmacht staff knew what was coming when the Russians encircled 6th Army. Many officers knew the line was overstretched but thought that the Russians were at the end of their tether just like the Germans.

Goering's boast was pure bombast - whether he knew it or not is irrelevant. The Demyansk Pocket was completely different to Stalingrad in terms of number of men and size. also the distance the Luftwaffe had to travel, in the middle of a Russian winter with rudimentary navigational equipment and a huge amount of fighter cover to break through. They had to try of course and it goes without saying that the pilots were extremely courageous in making the journey but any sane person in OKH knew that the airlift would never work.

In a sense the 6th Army was doomed from the time it was surrounded. In order that a breakout be a success it needed to happen ASAP otherwise lack of fuel and hunger would hinder any attempt at a breakout - indeed by the time that Manstein got within 40 miles of the Pocket, it was too late - the 6th Army would have been decimated on the Steppes as it tried to break out. Them men were too weak and there was no fuel.

[Kiwiwriter]

Yes, Hitler was stupid enough to believe Goering.

Hitler saw war as an extension of propaganda, and many of his decisions were based on their propaganda impact. He was not going to withdraw his biggest army (6th was the largest in the Wehrmacht inventory at the time) from a city that bore Stalin's name, especially as he had been fighting for it for months, and taken 90 percent of the place. Nor would he admit that German troops had to retreat...again...on the Russian Front. He had already ordered "no retreat" in front of Moscow.

Hitler was obsessed with the minutiae of war and statistics, and kept such manuals and books by his bed. He could not see the bigger picture of maintaining an army via airlift without adequate resources in the harsh Russian winter. Nor did he pay much attention to the German Army's disdain for logistics. German planning simply required the quartermasters to support whatever the operations guys had in mind. This compares with the Americans, who based everything on logistics, as Richard Overy and Eric Bergerud have pointed out in their books. The latter notes that had Hitler asked American generals about the possibilities of invading Russia, they would have given him memos about high-viscosity motor oil and other tedious but critical logistics topics, instead of the arrow streaks that Paulus and Marcks dreamed up for Barbarossa.

After Stalingrad, Hitler held Goering in disregard and increasing disrepute. The Luftwaffe's failure at Stalingrad was inevitable but catastrophic for his position. Things only got worse with Tunisia and the continued Allied bombing.

Hitler also had no interest in the lives and fates of his common soldiers, despite his affinity for them and seeing himself as one of them. He did not visit wounded men, rarely conferred decorations, and would not even look at a passing train that was loaded with wounded men when his train paused next to it. He showed no interest in the horrible conditions described to him by an officer evacuated from the Kessel. German soldiers were expected to obey, achieve the impossible, and die for their Fuhrer. He treated them like clerks and expected them to perform as heroes, and right up to the battle for Berlin. 6th Army was expected to hold Stalingrad and if necessary, fight to the very last man. It nearly did.

[kfz]

A couple of points.

I think Goering was out of favor well before Stalingrad. I dont beleive anyone would be taken in. I make no attempt to get inside Hitler's head and the man was obviously insane, but to believe Goering...

Paulus new the encirlcement was coming so the breakout was moot point really either it shoul;d and could have happen staright away or the ^th was pulled back before it happened.

Whole thing seems completly avoidable to me, I guess hindsight is a wonderfull thing...

[Gotthard Heinrici]

Note to file : Dont try and take the Caspian Oilfields whilst Taking Stalingrad