Heinz Guderian - Page 2

Gotthard Heinrici · 18-03-2008, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by von Poop

I suspect we could safely call Guderian's 1939-40 tour of Europe an even larger success couldn't we? Not exactly strung out in a desert country but not really half bad.
The BEF, French, Belgians, Poles, Dutch, Danes, Norwegians, Luxembergers and large swathes of Russia etc. may just have felt their balls being grabbed somewhat? (while those strikes may not all have come directly under his immediate command they certainly all used his techniques of warfare).

Would translation really be required, I think we'd get the gist

Oh I think that would be unmissable!

Zoya · 18-03-2008, 12:33 PM

The tragedy for Guderian was, I think, that during the Vistula defensive, he knew how close the Russians were to the end of their resources. For once, they really had virtually run out of men, and were exhausted, and their equpment straining after the long offensive journey. He knew that if things had been dealt with differently, the advance on Berlin could have been halted, and the resulting outcome for Europe very different. But his hands were tied by Hitler, who at this point had one foot in the realms of lunacy, I think.

4th wilts · 18-03-2008, 12:52 PM

the french attack did not cover as great an area as russia or alamein to enfidvile in tunisia.and in your own initial post gott,you assert yourself that guderian only had initial success during op barbarossa.monty had complete success in africa.lee

Gotthard Heinrici · 18-03-2008, 01:02 PM

Lee, Monty never faced Guderian in Africa last time I checked. Monty only had initial success in 1940 as I recall, indeed he was sent packing from France whereas Guderian had complete success in France and given that it was the only campaign that they both were involved with it is the only one that is comparable.

Its ok, Lee I get your point that Montgomery was a successful commander but this thread is not about Montgomery its about Guderian so can we park the "discussion" about guderian's record versus Montgomery's?

Zoya, I'm not sure whether the Germans would have been able to stop the Russian Army by the time he took over as commander of OKH. They had just launched Operation Bagration which tore the German Army asunder. There was no going back after Bagration, it was more a case of "when" rather than "if". It is an interesting "what if " though.

Owen · 18-03-2008, 01:08 PM

Quote:

It is an interesting "what if " though.

Start a "What if.." here, Ger & I'll ban yer.

Gotthard Heinrici · 18-03-2008, 01:12 PM

I'm not going to!!!

4th wilts · 18-03-2008, 01:24 PM

if the germans were fully motorised i.e,the british army,during barborossa,then the logistics generals like guderian required,may have resulted in quite different results in russia.lee.

Gotthard Heinrici · 18-03-2008, 01:27 PM

The lack of motorisation was indeed a handicap for the Germans in Russia, however they still managed to conquer most of Europe with what was essentially a horse drawn army.

4th wilts · 18-03-2008, 01:42 PM

i thought zoyas origional 1st post was pointing rather more to the eastern front.lee.

Owen · 18-03-2008, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4th wilts

i thought zoyas origional 1st post was pointing rather more to the eastern front.lee.

It was , Lee.
So why mention Monty?

18-03-2008, 12:33 PM	#12 (permalink)
Zoya Partisan Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Cheshire, England Posts: 170	The tragedy for Guderian was, I think, that during the Vistula defensive, he knew how close the Russians were to the end of their resources. For once, they really had virtually run out of men, and were exhausted, and their equpment straining after the long offensive journey. He knew that if things had been dealt with differently, the advance on Berlin could have been halted, and the resulting outcome for Europe very different. But his hands were tied by Hitler, who at this point had one foot in the realms of lunacy, I think. __________________ The Motherland, bent over her daughter's ashes, Sings this tender maternal song About Zoya, the girl, who has become a legend, Who died and was born for eternal life. Dimitri Shostakovich Song for Zoya (1944) The War in the East

18-03-2008, 01:02 PM	#14 (permalink)
Gotthard Heinrici Ostfront is where its at! Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 3,468	Lee, Monty never faced Guderian in Africa last time I checked. Monty only had initial success in 1940 as I recall, indeed he was sent packing from France whereas Guderian had complete success in France and given that it was the only campaign that they both were involved with it is the only one that is comparable. Its ok, Lee I get your point that Montgomery was a successful commander but this thread is not about Montgomery its about Guderian so can we park the "discussion" about guderian's record versus Montgomery's? Zoya, I'm not sure whether the Germans would have been able to stop the Russian Army by the time he took over as commander of OKH. They had just launched Operation Bagration which tore the German Army asunder. There was no going back after Bagration, it was more a case of "when" rather than "if". It is an interesting "what if " though. __________________ *"The Eastern front is like a house of cards. If the front is broken through at one point all the rest will collapse."* - General Heinz Guderian "With amazement and disappointment, we discovered in late October and early November that the beaten Russians seemed quite unaware that as a military force they had almost ceased to exist." - General Blumentritt "In all my years as a soldier, I have never seen me fight so hard." Lieutenant General Wilhelm Bittrich - Commander of II SS Panzer Korps - (Commenting on the British Paratroopers at Arnhem) - September 1944 "Had Clark given more heed to Juin's views...the savage battles of Cassino would probably never have been fought and the venerable house of St Benedict would have been unscathed" Rudolf Böhmler - 1st Fallschirmjäger Division - 1944 (After the bombing of Monte Cassino)

18-03-2008, 01:12 PM	#16 (permalink)
Gotthard Heinrici Ostfront is where its at! Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 3,468	I'm not going to!!! __________________ *"The Eastern front is like a house of cards. If the front is broken through at one point all the rest will collapse."* - General Heinz Guderian "With amazement and disappointment, we discovered in late October and early November that the beaten Russians seemed quite unaware that as a military force they had almost ceased to exist." - General Blumentritt "In all my years as a soldier, I have never seen me fight so hard." Lieutenant General Wilhelm Bittrich - Commander of II SS Panzer Korps - (Commenting on the British Paratroopers at Arnhem) - September 1944 "Had Clark given more heed to Juin's views...the savage battles of Cassino would probably never have been fought and the venerable house of St Benedict would have been unscathed" Rudolf Böhmler - 1st Fallschirmjäger Division - 1944 (After the bombing of Monte Cassino)

18-03-2008, 01:27 PM	#18 (permalink)
Gotthard Heinrici Ostfront is where its at! Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 3,468	The lack of motorisation was indeed a handicap for the Germans in Russia, however they still managed to conquer most of Europe with what was essentially a horse drawn army. __________________ *"The Eastern front is like a house of cards. If the front is broken through at one point all the rest will collapse."* - General Heinz Guderian "With amazement and disappointment, we discovered in late October and early November that the beaten Russians seemed quite unaware that as a military force they had almost ceased to exist." - General Blumentritt "In all my years as a soldier, I have never seen me fight so hard." Lieutenant General Wilhelm Bittrich - Commander of II SS Panzer Korps - (Commenting on the British Paratroopers at Arnhem) - September 1944 "Had Clark given more heed to Juin's views...the savage battles of Cassino would probably never have been fought and the venerable house of St Benedict would have been unscathed" Rudolf Böhmler - 1st Fallschirmjäger Division - 1944 (After the bombing of Monte Cassino)

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18-03-2008, 12:52 PM	#13 (permalink)
4th wilts Discharged Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: wessex Posts: 1,043	the french attack did not cover as great an area as russia or alamein to enfidvile in tunisia.and in your own initial post gott,you assert yourself that guderian only had initial success during op barbarossa.monty had complete success in africa.lee

18-03-2008, 01:24 PM	#17 (permalink)
4th wilts Discharged Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: wessex Posts: 1,043	if the germans were fully motorised i.e,the british army,during barborossa,then the logistics generals like guderian required,may have resulted in quite different results in russia.lee.

18-03-2008, 01:42 PM	#19 (permalink)
4th wilts Discharged Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: wessex Posts: 1,043	i thought zoyas origional 1st post was pointing rather more to the eastern front.lee.

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