Operation Mars - Zhukov's greatest defeat

[Za Rodinu]

I agree, Kiwiwriter, Göbbels had his hands too full with Stalingrad, El Alamein, Op. Torch, all within the same timeframe, to blare he horn at what was a confused battle in the middle of no place. Even if it was a victory, it did not look too photogenic in the swamps and woods .

[Kiwiwriter]

Originally Posted by Za Rodinu

I agree, Kiwiwriter, Göbbels had his hands too full with Stalingrad, El Alamein, Op. Torch, all within the same timeframe, to blare he horn at what was a confused battle in the middle of no place. Even if it was a victory, it did not look too photogenic in the swamps and woods .

You know, that's an interesting point...if you really study the German newsreel footage and compare it with British and American footage, you can see the difference between democratic ideas and Nazi ideas.

The German newsreels focus heavily on the glory and triumph of the Nazi war machine...goose-stepping troops, Stukas, artillery, tanks blasting along, victory parades.

The British and American combat footage, by comparison, focuses more on ordinary men slogging their way through the difficult situations. Very little glory or triumphalism, and a lot more dirt and grit.

The Germans did go with more dirt and grit as the war droned on, and they were in retreat, to show how heroically the Landsers were defending the homeland. You don't see too many worn-out Landsers until late in the war.

Bill Mauldin was a product of a democracy. You couldn't have a Bill Mauldin in Germany. Or "Willie and Joe."

[Exxley]

Originally Posted by Kiwiwriter

You know, that's an interesting point...if you really study the German newsreel footage and compare it with British and American footage, you can see the difference between democratic ideas and Nazi ideas.

The German newsreels focus heavily on the glory and triumph of the Nazi war machine...goose-stepping troops, Stukas, artillery, tanks blasting along, victory parades.

The British and American combat footage, by comparison, focuses more on ordinary men slogging their way through the difficult situations. Very little glory or triumphalism, and a lot more dirt and grit.

The Germans did go with more dirt and grit as the war droned on, and they were in retreat, to show how heroically the Landsers were defending the homeland. You don't see too many worn-out Landsers until late in the war.

Bill Mauldin was a product of a democracy. You couldn't have a Bill Mauldin in Germany. Or "Willie and Joe."

Agree. Another example would be all the fuss and the hype surrounding the German war heroes (KC holders and such). Such an emphasizis on individual performance was quite surprising in a totalitarian state. On the other hand, we must recognize that Max Wunsch or Jochen Peiper are way better poster boys than the average Helmut.

[Owen]

Currently printing this off. I prefer reading from paper than the screen.
Will read it at work then hopefully I'll be able to join in more on these Ost Front discussions.

[Gotthard Heinrici]

It is a good article Owen and its amazing that when we talk about the Eastern Front we tend to concentrate on a small number of important battles rather than some of the smaller battles. Incidentally a "small" battle on the Eastern Front would probably be bigger than a lot of Western Conflicts. Thats not a dig at the Western Front by any means but its necessary if we are to talk about the East to realise the enormity of the Battles.

When talking about the East most westerners will talk about the "Big Battles" such as Stalingrad, Moscow, Kharkov, Kursk and Bagration. Some of the lesser known battles e.g. The Soviet Counter-Offensives in 1941, the Battle for Kiev, The Minsk and Smolensk pockets, the liberation of South Ukraine, the taking of Poland and East/West Prussia. All of these are rarely discussed and I shall endevour to try and put some info up on these Battles so we may talk about them!

[Owen]

VP and I were PMing about this earlier.
It's the sheer scale of the fighting and size of the Forces involved that intimidate us Westerners from looking further into the Ost Front.

My New Years resolution is to look in depth at the Eastern Front.

[I have a pen-friend in Liepaja,Latvia so I'd like to learn more about the war there. All I know is the Kurland Pocket.]

[Gotthard Heinrici]

Owen, the Courland pocket is a good place to start and if you have someone who is from that area they can be a mine of information.

[Owen]

Originally Posted by Gotthard Heinrici

Owen, the Courland pocket is a good place to start and if you have someone who is from that area they can be a mine of information.

No luck there.
I've brought up the subject of the war many a time.
It gets politely ignored.
My friend was a Nurse in the Soviet Army in the 1980s.
He was stationed at a hospital in Tallinn, Estonia.
They had lots of casualties from Afganistan sent there.
One got his hands on an AK and went beserk in the wards.
Rather traumatic for all involved.

[Owen]

Haven't been able to finish article yet, too busy at work, all that Christmas post.
Everytime I sat down to read it I'd get interrupted with a "Wot you reading, Moose?"
This quote, which I have heard before still gets me.

Today, sufficient German and Soviet archival materials are available to permit correction of this historical mistake and to commemorate properly the sacrifices of the half million Red Army soldiers and the many Germans who fell during the operation, a figure which exceeds the military death toll of the United States Armed Forces throughout the entire war.

That was for one operation of a couple of months..


By the way I'm hooked now, looking at GoogleEarth for the battlefield.

[Edited in toay]

Within 48 hours 300 tanks were shot up in a sector only 4 kilometers wide

Compare that with the slating Monty gets for Operation Goodwood.

four days of intense combat, with the loss of more than 400 tanks, all that had been achieved was an advance of roughly eight miles

The Pendulum of Battle, Operation Goodwood July 1944 Armor - Find Articles

With total tank losses for Mars at

Soviet tank losses, correctly estimated by the Germans as around 1,700, were equally staggering, in as much as they exceeded the total number of tanks the Soviets initially committed in Operation Uranus at Stalingrad

Can you imagine any Western commander keeping his job and reputation after that!

[Owen]

This is from Alex's RKKA site.
Operation Mars from a Russian view.
Operation Mars


Then there is,

Colonel Orlov Alexander Semenovich
Doctor of History Science, leading research officer of Military History Institute of Ministry of Defense of Russia, Academician of the Russian Academy of Native Sciences

Operation Mars (prof. Orlov)

He has a few views on the Glantz article.