Anorther Article for Students of the Eastern Front

Originally Posted by Gotthard Heinrici

Yeah I love that one about Envelopment operations being avoided. Just what exactly was the surrounding of 6th Army at Stalingrad or indeed how did so many German Units end up as "roving pockets" following Soviet Attacks. They were well capable of envelopment operations. Jimbo, first of all he didnt say they were completely false. He said that "Each lies someplace between the realms of myht and reality".

The weather did not completely impede the Germans in the East. Yes it was a factor but not to the extent that the German Memoirs would have us believe. As I have stated before two sides were fighting in the same weather and the Russians just happened to fight better and were smarter than the Germans in that they knew what was coming. I dont accept the premise that the weather was the only reason the Germans lost at Moscow and Stalingrad. The Germans were only 28km from Red Square at one point but in no way were strong enough to take the capital. It certainly impeded their advance and indeed hampered their ability to fight but doesnt that make the Russians smarter? Who is stupid enough to invade Russia and not bring Winter Clothes?

Well, the Russians were the home team. Of course they have home field advantage. But doesn't the fact that Hitler was too arrogant to believe it might take a few months longer and therefore not allocate winter clothing validate one of the claims that is traditional that Hitler impeded Germany's progress? Glantz said that was a myth and speaks as though his opinion was fact and those of others are refuted even if they have facts to back it up.

Strange beasty that Glantz.

Also you can't say that weather "hampers" your ability. That sounds to dismissive. If your cannon barrels are breaking, if your armor wont start, if the grease in your guns freeze and make them inoperable, and if the cold starts killing your soldiers, then it does far more than hampers. Some of these things are very hard to sugar coat.

I am convinced that if the weather had been warm, Russia would have fallen. I am likewise convinced that had the Lend Lease not been extended to the Russians, their army would have starved to death. Can we at least agree that they would have starved to death without food? It is a limitation of humans, barbaric or otherwise. And then can we agree that a soldier that has starved to death does not fight very well?

[Exxley]

Originally Posted by jimbotosome

But doesn't the fact that Hitler was too arrogant to believe it might take a few months longer and therefore not allocate winter clothing validate one of the claims that is traditional that Hitler impeded Germany's progress? Glantz said that was a myth and speaks as though his opinion was fact and those of others are refuted even if they have facts to back it up.
Strange beasty that Glantz.

Of course, Glantz was not talking only about decisions taken before and during Barbarossa, a "fact" that somehow our reading expert failed to see.

Originally Posted by jimbotosome

Also you can't say that weather "hampers" your ability. That sounds to dismissive. If your cannon barrels are breaking, if your armor wont start, if the grease in your guns freeze and make them inoperable, and if the cold starts killing your soldiers, then it does far more than hampers. Some of these things are very hard to sugar coat.
I am convinced that if the weather had been warm, Russia would have fallen.

Shall I point out that it has been demonstrated over and over that by fall 1941, the Ostheer had already suffered too many losses ? Guess who is to be believed ? An uneducated redneck or Franz Halder ?

Originally Posted by jimbotosome

I am likewise convinced that had the Lend Lease not been extended to the Russians, their army would have starved to death. Can we at least agree that they would have starved to death without food? It is a limitation of humans, barbaric or otherwise. And then can we agree that a soldier that has starved to death does not fight very well?

Except that once again the effect of Lend lease did not kick in before late 1942. By that time, the tide had already turned.

[Za Rodinu]

Originally Posted by jimbotosome

If your cannon barrels are breaking, if your armor wont start, if the grease in your guns freeze and make them inoperable, and if the cold starts killing your soldiers, then it ...

... then it means somebody at a very high level was not doing his homework. It also means that "somebody at a very high level" ( a collective "somebody", not only Hitler) was utterly arrogant and incompetent to base a campaign in wishful thinking instead of a careful study. Summer coats and boots in under -40ºC? I can't imagine the suffering all thos people went through. Somebody was very incompetent indeed.

Originally Posted by jimbotosome

I am convinced that if the weather had been warm, Russia would have fallen.

I am convinced that every year between 1941-45 the weather in Russia was warm enough between roughly March to November, and nevertheless Russia did not fall even then.

Originally Posted by jimbotosome

I am likewise convinced that had the Lend Lease not been extended to the Russians, their army would have starved to death.

And I happen to be convinced that Lend-lease was in a very incipient phase in 1941, and that's not what kept the Russians from falling. Later it was a significant help, but in 1941?

Anyway, these two articles were presented here yesterday. I have to commend you for being such a fast reader to have read and absorbed both in such a short time.

[Gotthard Heinrici]

Right this has gone far enough. You keep referring the Russians as "Barbaric". I can take your dismissive attitude towards the Red Army no problem, but to infer that they are Barbaric is rascist in itself and I dont care what atrocities they have committed, please be more respectful in your tone towards the Russian People. I dont see any other countries being referred to as "Barbaric" yet you constantly do it. I dont care what you believe or dont believe but please stop referring to an entire nation in that tone. Do we refer to the Germans as Barbaric even though they themselves took on a particular brand of Genocide? Or do you ignore that because they were good soldiers in your eyes. This is supposed to be a welcoming board to all peoples and when posts like that are put out there what sort of message does that send??? I'm not surprised that we have such a small representation from Russia when that sort of comment is allowed.

[Exxley]

Originally Posted by jimbotosome

How dare you refer to all Germans as perpetrators of a genocide! I can take you saying that about the Nazis but not a whole nation! That's racist!

It would be interesting if our uneducated loony can quote Gotthard saying that. Being the dishonest bloke he is, Im afraid he is going to do his best not to answer this.

Originally Posted by jimbotosome

unlike Russia who embraces their history and killed far more of everyone than the Hitler ever imagined, including Jews, which Stalin killed because they were Jews.

Funny that at the same time, many senior Soviet officials and General officers were Jews. Guess that poor Jimbo doesnt once again have any clue of what he's babbling about.

[Gotthard Heinrici]

Originally Posted by jimbotosome

I have called the Nazis barbaric many times on this site even. Racism? You are fishing dude.

Interesting. Today, I read where the Soviet Union is going to sell anti-air missile systems to Iran. The whole of civilized nations is collecting to debate what to do about Iran who is treatening to wipe Israel off the map, is drumming up nukes, and Russia (in the circle of the wise?) up and says, don't count on me, I can make some money here even if I destablize the world". And you are afraid we are going to send a wrong message that Russia is a scumbag nation? Is that even possible?

Why aren't you afraid that the Barbarians are insulted by being compared to the Russians? Don't get you at all Gotthard. I gotta admit. You lose me in the turn.

How dare you refer to all Germans as perpetrators of a genocide! I can take you saying that about the Nazis but not a whole nation! That's racist!

BTW: I work with Germans. The are very ashamed of their nation's dubious history in WWII to the point I am embarrased when the point comes up, unlike Russia who embraces their history and killed far more of everyone than the Hitler ever imagined, including Jews, which Stalin killed because they were Jews. You are barking up the wrong tree if you think you can one up Hitler with Stalin...that's out there...

You refer to the Russians as Barbaric and "A Scumbag nation" because of Stalin and the fact that they deliberately killed millions of their population and enslaved millions more in lives of misery and penure. Now by your logic thats enough reason to refer to Russia and Russians in that light. And you are calling them a "scumbag Nation" in light of their current actions as well. I'm glad that you think that this is ok. What do you think the Germans/Nazis were doing in 1939-45??? Go ask the Simon Wiesenthal Center. They might be able to enlighten you as to what went on or does the Holocaust escape your mind. Have you ever called them Barbarians? I know I havent. I have never referred to Germans in a derogatory tone. I merely asked why you dont call them Barbarians given that they also killed millions. By the way I have German Friends too. Great! At least we have something in common. And the guys I know are perfectly happy to talk about the war and face up to what happened. Are you trying to make me feel guilty about it? Well because I have not mentioned anything derogatory about the German Nation I dont. If we go by your logic that they killed millions (as did the Nazis/Germans) and the fact that they enslaved millions (as did the Nazis/Germans) then you should be referring to both nations as Barbaric and not the other. If not all Germans were involved in what the Nazis did well please give me proof that all Russians did what the Communists did because not all Russians were members of the Party. But you have referred to All Russians as Scumbags and evil. So am I merely asking why you dont say the same about the Germans. I dont get your logic. Nor do I want to. Your constant referrings to Russia and the Russians as Scumbags is as ignorant as its embarrassing to this board. I dont care what your views are, but its not your board and other people have different opinions to you. What sort of a message is this board sending out when we are allowing comments like that to be put up on the board.

And as for trying to state that one dictator was worse than the other well you keep ranting on about the Evilness of Stalin because BOTH were as bad as each other.

Oh yeah, You really shouldnt be talking about Russia selling arms to Iran for 2 reasons. One: It is discussing politics and as Kiwiwriter has stated that is not to happen and Second: People in glass houses shouldnt throw stones. A US Citizen trying to adopt the moral high ground on Arms Sales to other Countries is really funny!!!

[Za Rodinu]

Again, please read this definition of an Internet Troll: "In Internet terminology, a troll is someone who comes into an established community such as an online discussion forum, and posts inflammatory, rude or offensive messages designed to annoy and antagonize the existing members or disrupt the flow of discussion".

Please stop feeding the troll.

[Gotthard Heinrici]

You are right Za! I have also taken the liberty of reporting the post in question to the mods.

[Exxley]

Originally Posted by Gotthard Heinrici

You are right Za! I have also taken the liberty of reporting the post in question to the mods.

Let's see what good this will do