Kiev Defence Operation as a factor

[Gotthard Heinrici]

** IMPORTANT - Can we please have a discussion about the Eastern Front without it having to be closed - Its getting very frustrating - as HO as often said we should talk about Campaigns and Orders of Battle and this thread is an effort to follow up on his idea - PLEASE LETS TRY AND DISCUSS THIS WITH RESTRAINT!!!!!


In September 1941 Kiev was captured by the Germans and with it over half a million Russian Troops fell into German Hands. This operation inevitably drew German forces away from the Thrust towards Moscow but also destroyed a Key Soviet Army. My question to you guys is this: Were the Germans right to force Guderians army to turn south to complete the encirclement even though it meant delaying the drive for Moscow? Or was it a case that if they kept going east then they would run the risk of a large salient in the Soviet Line with the Soutwestern Front intact and a credible Danger to the German Advance?

Were they right or wrong to encircle Southwestern Front?

I'd love to hear your opinions!

[von Poop]

This is another case of a Hitler order confusing the intentions of those on the ground isn't it?
The Soviet forces around Kiev were still in reasonably good condition weren't they? Avoided by the German Generals who didn't want the offensive to get bogged down in house to house type operations at such an early stage. Hitlers order stems from the enormous desire he felt to posess the Ukraine.
Very hard to say how far Germany could have got if Guderian hadn't turned back. Maybe they would have avoided a lot of the Winter Privations they suffered from setting off too late in the first place?
Instinctively If they'd carried on then at least they wouldn't lose any more time. The Soviet Salient, though strong and re-inforced could have been dealt with at a later date without too much danger of it becoming a 'Stalingrad', (and along much shorter supply lines).

[Gotthard Heinrici]

The Southwestern Front consisted of 5 armies the 5th 6th 12th and 26th Armies under the command of General Kirponos who was killed when his headquarters was overrun in Sept 1941. I will try and get a more detailed Order of Battle in relation to these formations and post it here.

[Owen]

As I'm not an Eastern Fronter is this what you refer too?
http://www.onwar.com/maps/wwii/eastf...barbarossa.htm

If it is, then if they hadn't taken the SW Front out wouldn't the SW Front troops have moved north and hit the German Moscow thrust in the Flank?
Which is what I've just re-read what you asked, sorry.
I'd protect my flanks. But I'm an ex-Lance-Corporal not a General.

[Gotthard Heinrici]

Originally Posted by Von Poop

This is another case of a Hitler order confusing the intentions of those on the ground isn't it?
The Soviet forces around Kiev were still in reasonably good condition weren't they? Avoided by the German Generals who didn't want the offensive to get bogged down in house to house type operations at such an early stage. Hitlers order stems from the enormous desire he felt to posess the Ukraine.
Very hard to say how far Germany could have got if Guderian hadn't turned back. Maybe they would have avoided a lot of the Winter Privations they suffered from setting off too late in the first place?
Instinctively If they'd carried on then at least they wouldn't lose any more time. The Soviet Salient, though strong and re-inforced could have been dealt with at a later date without too much danger of it becoming a 'Stalingrad', (and along much shorter supply lines).

Yes I know what you are saying VP but I wonder if they Russians would have used the Kiev Salient as a launching pad for an offensive of their own. Guderian's Troops could well have been cut off and although it is unlikely that they would have to surrender, again time would have been lost whilst they extricate themselves and see off the Russian Threat.

[von Poop]

Originally Posted by Gotthard Heinrici

I wonder if they Russians would have used the Kiev Salient as a launching pad for an offensive of their own. Guderian's Troops could well have been cut off and although it is unlikely that they would have to surrender, again time would have been lost whilst they extricate themselves and see off the Russian Threat.

Didn't Stalin forbid a breakout from Kiev when the encirclement finally came?
It does seem that the Soviets were more concerned with consolidation at that time. Perhaps worth the risk??
If Guderians advance continued and took him to Moscow succesfully there could still be considerable German pressure on Kiev from the south to aid in a later encirclement of the Russians...???
Time (and the lack of it) does seem to emerge again as the significant factor doesn't it?

I'm going to have to go and stare at some maps here .
still can't find any decent Oob's for the area....Any joy?
Cheers,
Adam.

[Owen]

Just been reading about this in War of The Century by Laurence Rees.

He says what I did.
It was right to protect flanks and there was every possiblity of the armoured thrust to Moscow being cut off by the troops on their flanks and then there would have been a large pocket of Germans surrounded in or near the Soviet capital.
He agrees Hilter was correct to make them turn away from Moscow.

I believe the destruction of the Red Army was more important than taking ground.

[AMVAS]

Well, gentlemen.

I'll say that when Germans turned their wa to the South defensive positions of soviet troops on that direction were rather poor.
I'm silent about possibility of attacks from that direction.
soviet reserves were concentrated on the Bryansk Front, which tried to parry the German blow. Need to mention they were somewhat less than Guderian mentioned ("20 divisions of Timoshenko". Btw the Bryansk Front commander was Yeremenko)

Battle scheme for operations in that area can be seen here
http://www.rkkaww2.armchairgeneral.c...pt_1_10_41.jpg

Other schemes see
Maps 1941 South-West

One can see that the SW front had no any significant tank units on that direction.

soviet Stavka saw possibility of the blow to the south, but paid too much hopes to the counter-blow of Yeremenko.

Blow from the Dnieper bridgehead to the North was almost missed by Soviet command. they didn't paid enough attention to it and the result was a catastrophe.

I have enough detailed OOBs if anybody are interested....

Regards,
Alex

[Gotthard Heinrici]

I was having trouble getting OOBs for this campaign so AMVAS, I 'd be obliged if you could supply some OOB's for the Southwestern Front.

[AMVAS]

Originally Posted by Gotthard Heinrici

I was having trouble getting OOBs for this campaign so

AMVAS, I 'd be obliged if you could supply some OOB's for the Southwestern Front.

Ok, I'll give it on Sept. 1'41

So, lets start...

SW Front:

5th Army:
15th Rfl. Corps (45,62 RD)
31st Rfl. corps (193,195,200 RD)
131st RD, 5th Fortified Region
1st Airborne Corps (1,204 Airborne Bde)
1st AT Artillery Bde, 231,368,458,460,543 Corps Art. Regt,
212,331,589th SCCR Art. Regiments
23,243,263 Separate AA Bn
9th Mechcorps (20,35 Tank div.)
22nd MechCorps (19,41 Tank Div)
215th Motorised division
152nd Separate Tank Bn
15th Separate Armored Train Battalion
117th Motorised Engineer Bn
11th Pontoon Bn
147th Separate Sapper Bn


26th Army
HQ of the 6th Rifle Corps
41,159,199,227,264,289,301 Rfl. Div.
15th Mot. Rfl. regt.
8th Fortified Region

209,229 SCCR Art. Regt.
186th At Art. Regt.
669th Light Art. regt/228th Rfl. Div.
17th Separate AA Bn

7th Motorised div.
37th Motorcycle Regt., 57,60,91 Separate Tank Bn

65,119 Motorised Eng. Bn
37 Pontoon Bn, 195th Separate Sapper Bn

37th Army
HQs of 27,64 Rfl. Corps
28th Mnt. Rfl. Div.
87,124,146,147,165,171,175,206,228,284,285 Rfl. Div.
1st Fortified Region

272,377 Corps Art. Regt.
538th Howitzer Art. regt.
135th SCCR Gun Art. Regt
45th Separate AT Bn

63rd Separate Tank Bn
3rd Motorcycle Bn

48th Separate Eng. Bn, 120 Mot. Eng. Bn.
13th Mot. Pontoon Bn, 8th Separate Sapper Bn


38th Army
97,116,196,212,297,300,304 Rifle Div.
United Regiment of Poltava Tractor School
5th Cavalry corps (3,14,34 Cav. Div), 37th Cav. Div.

441,445th Corps Art. Regt
555th SCCR gun Art. Regt.
558th AT Art. regt.
6th Separate AA Bn.

89,94 Separate Tank Bn
21st Motorcycle regt.

56th Separate Eng. Bn, 45 Motorised Eng. Bn.
28th Pontoon bn, 277th Separate Sapper Bn.

40th Army:
135,293 Rfl. Div.
2nd Airborne Corps (2,3,4 Airborne Bde)
1042nd Rifle regt/295th RD

5th AT Art. Bde.
21st Corps Art. regt.
595,738,760 AT Art. regt.
205th Separate AA Bn.

10th Tank division, 53,55,65 Separate Tank Bn.
286th Separate Tank Bn.

Front HQ:

81,99 RD
3rd Airborne Corps (5,6,212 Airborne Bde)
3,4,6,13,15,17 Fortified Regions

Two Separate Flame Thrower Battalions (type "A" and "B")

233rd Corps Art. regt.
376,506 SCCR Howitzer Art. regt
197,754,756 AT Art. regt
85 Separate AT Bn
3,4 air defence Divisions,
Ostersky, Kanevsky, Kievsky Brigade Air defense regions
20,25,29,75,307,386 Separate AA Bn

129th Tank Bde.
36th Air Defense Fighter Aircraft Division
19,62 Bomber Aircraft Divisions
15,16,17,63 Mixed Aircraft divisions
316 recon Aircraft Regiment

12,14 Separate Eng. Bn.
1,2,66,86 Motorised Eng. Bn
5,10,12,13,15,25,30,31,32 Pontoon Bn
187 Separate Sapper Bn.


(SCCR=suprime command-in-chief reserve. Or High command reserve)

Regards,
Alex

P.S. Take into account the 21st Army, which can be also seen on the map between the 5th and 40th armies belonged to the BRYANSKY Front