Living under German occupation or under Vichy

[BeppoSapone]

Originally posted by Harry Ree@Jul 3 2004, 10:41 AM
This is an interesting thread.It is difficult to have any discussion about the Vichy regime

Apt name!

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/SOEree.htm

[Brummy]

I often think that the Attack on the French fleet In Algeria by the Royal Navy, Killing 1300 ( I think this is the correct number please feel free to correct me if I am wrong) French sailors, Went a long way to pushing Petain closer to the Nazi's.

Brum

[angie999]

Originally posted by Brummy@Jul 3 2004, 04:06 PM
I often think that the Attack on the French fleet In Algeria by the Royal Navy, Killing 1300 ( I think this is the correct number please feel free to correct me if I am wrong) French sailors, Went a long way to pushing Petain closer to the Nazi's.

Brum

I don't agree with this. I think the Vichy regime did not need a push to collaborate.

[Brummy]

With this being the opening act of actual hot blooded war between Britain and Vichy France, And with the Vichy government making very real retaliations, breaking off diplomatic relations with Britain, Sinking the Destroyer Whirlwind off Gibralter and taking British merchant ships. I can not help but come to the conclusion that this act turned the Government of Vichy France from an element, that was at least talking to the Uk, to one that was at war with the UK and therefore now a very real military ally of Nazi Germany. Perhaps they did not need a push, but this was definately giving them one wether they needed it or not.

Brum

[Harry Ree]

On the fall of France,Petain and Laval stated publicly that they wish for a German victory.They thought that it was only a matter of time when the British Isles would be invaded and overcome by a German invasion.Later on after the German invasion of Russia, the Vichy regime saw themselves along with the Nazi regime as the only opposition to a Europe dominated by Soviet Russia and its communism. Make no mistake,the Vichy Government was a right wing organisation who saw the problems of pre war France as those caused by the rule of democracy.It was a puppet government which followed every beck and call of its masters in Berlin.

An interesting fact of this period is that the US were one of the first neutrals to recognise the Vichy Government. After the US entered the war and after it was apparent that the Vichy Government would not survive for its collaboration,the US backed General Giraud and with US approval wanted to utilise prominent Vichyites.De Gaulle would have none of this and successfully prosecuted the the Vichyites who had made themselves readily accessible in Algeria.Giraud was only interested in military affairs and not the wider political issues that De Gaulle focused on and quickly withdrew from the stage on a principle of unity, leaving De Gaulle to represent the resistance to German occupation and the true interests of a free France.

FDR preferred Giraud to De Gaulle as the Free French representative but was forced to recognise De Gaulle as the person who had co-ordinated and organised resistance to the German invader.Even so, De Gaulle was not told that an allied invasion had taken place on Frence soil on 6 June 1944.

Had the Vichy Government not been undermined by De Gaulle and through him, a resistance established then France would have been an occupied country, ruled by an Allied Military Government after the successful invasion of 1944.

[angie999]

Originally posted by Harry Ree@Jul 12 2004, 11:52 PM
Had the Vichy Government not been undermined by De Gaulle and through him, a resistance established then France would have been an occupied country, ruled by an Allied Military Government after the successful invasion of 1944.

The Americans in particular set up an AMGOT (Allied Military Govenment of the Occupied Territories) organisation ready to step in in France. They even printed new currency. But the fact that the Free French had their own people in place to step in and sieze control of the government machinery meant that AMGOT never stood a chance in France.

And once the landings in the South of France took place, France had an army in the field, in addition to Leclerc's 2e DB which landed in Normandy.

[laufer]

I wander if you have seen a harrowing french drama Le Vieux fusil (1975) ? It is set in southern France in the last days of german occupation.

[harribobs]

I found it quite disturbing to read that the french actually deported their own (Jewish) people without the assistance of any germans from Vichy to the camps, I understand they were given a quota and told to get on with it, which they did with vigour

I know degaulle's solution was to brush it all under the table, he created a myth of a resistant France united against a common, foreign enemy, 'we were all part of the resistance' (paraphrased, i can't find the quote)

[Kiwiwriter]

Originally posted by harribobs@Feb 9 2005, 10:59 AM
I found it quite disturbing to read that the french actually deported their own (Jewish) people without the assistance of any germans from Vichy to the camps, I understand they were given a quota and told to get on with it, which they did with vigour

I know degaulle's solution was to brush it all under the table, he created a myth of a resistant France united against a common, foreign enemy, 'we were all part of the resistance' (paraphrased, i can't find the quote)

Quoted post

De Gaulle wasn't the only one to brush the Vichy regime under the table. Remember that at the time of Operation Torch, the US did not want to have anything to do with the imperious De Gaulle, so they negotiated with Vichy leaders like Admiral Darlan to bring the French North African forces over to the Allied side. A lot of the French forces that fought in the war after that were former Vichy troops and assets, including the battleship Richelieu and Marshal Juin and his French Expeditionary Corps in Italy. Ironically, that was one of the best Allied forces in Italy.

[harribobs]

De Gaulle wasn't the only one to brush the Vichy regime under the table. Remember that at the time of Operation Torch, the US did not want to have anything to do with the imperious De Gaulle, so they negotiated with Vichy leaders like Admiral Darlan to bring the French North African forces over to the Allied side. A lot of the French forces that fought in the war after that were former Vichy troops and assets, including the battleship Richelieu and Marshal Juin and his French Expeditionary Corps in Italy. Ironically, that was one of the best Allied forces in Italy.

Quoted post

Kiwi

Was it Darlan who was assassinated by the free french guy?

On a similiar thread, didn't two battalions of the foriegn legion end up fighting each other in the middle east? ( but the vichy side 'come' over to the allies afterwards)