operation felix

[raf]

having read up on this i was wondering.


why would Franco require that much wheat ??


couldnt Hitler have just walked into spain ??


if the Germans had tried to invade Gibralter. would the British have held out. ive been to Gib a few times and cant imagine the Germans inflicting much damage on the big guns from a distance with there tanks but would be best just to storm accross the runway / old race course weres theres limited cover and then into the town.

thanks



Operation Felix - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[smc]

Perhaps the Spanish Civil War had something to do with it?

Spain was flattened by three years of conflict, loss of men, failure of harvests in areas of fighting, communications destroyed and a general will to avoid having to fight again. Franco himself was not yet secure in power, attempts on his life would continue into the late 1940s, hence his harsh demands and refusal to back down in his meeting at Hendaye in 1940. I think Hitler's quote was along the lines of I'd much rather have all my teeth removed without anaesthetic than have to negotiate with Franco again. Hitler would also be aware that although Spain was weak German help for Franco between 1936-39 had at least provided him with a friendly state in that part of the world. He would also know that the British would not try anything because it would give Franco an excuse to get the Germans in and try to capture Gibraltar. Hitler would have left things as they were to deal with at a later oppotune time.

I would also suggest you have a close look at the geography, physical and political, of a country before making the statement of just walking in. There would be the Pyrenees to start with, and the mountainous interior of central and southern Spain often cut with fast flowing gorged rivers before they even got to Gibraltar which is at the extreme south western tip of the country. Furthermore their lines of communications would go through Basque and Catalan areas, both inhabitated by anti-Franco peoples whom the British would probably waste little time in enlisting to help their cause with a little guerilla activity. Three years of civil war fighting had trained enough people in the art of guerilla activity and had also probably left enough weapons and explosives circulating within society for people to get hold of.

Why stir a potential hornets nest when a pro-Axis leader is currently running the country?

[kfz]

Originally Posted by smc

Perhaps the Spanish Civil War had something to do with it?

Spain was flattened by three years of conflict, loss of men, failure of harvests in areas of fighting, communications destroyed and a general will to avoid having to fight again. Franco himself was not yet secure in power, attempts on his life would continue into the late 1940s, hence his harsh demands and refusal to back down in his meeting at Hendaye in 1940. I think Hitler's quote was along the lines of I'd much rather have all my teeth removed without anaesthetic than have to negotiate with Franco again. Hitler would also be aware that although Spain was weak German help for Franco between 1936-39 had at least provided him with a friendly state in that part of the world. He would also know that the British would not try anything because it would give Franco an excuse to get the Germans in and try to capture Gibraltar. Hitler would have left things as they were to deal with at a later oppotune time.

I would also suggest you have a close look at the geography, physical and political, of a country before making the statement of just walking in. There would be the Pyrenees to start with, and the mountainous interior of central and southern Spain often cut with fast flowing gorged rivers before they even got to Gibraltar which is at the extreme south western tip of the country. Furthermore their lines of communications would go through Basque and Catalan areas, both inhabitated by anti-Franco peoples whom the British would probably waste little time in enlisting to help their cause with a little guerilla activity. Three years of civil war fighting had trained enough people in the art of guerilla activity and had also probably left enough weapons and explosives circulating within society for people to get hold of.

Why stir a potential hornets nest when a pro-Axis leader is currently running the country?

but the prize! Loosing GIb would have been a major blow, with effects on Western desert supply, operation torch, Malta, battle of the Atlantic, cut the straights would have made the far east the long way round. Hitler should have done it.

Kev

[smc]

Originally Posted by kfz

but the prize! Loosing GIb would have been a major blow, with effects on Western desert supply, operation torch, Malta, battle of the Atlantic, cut the straights would have made the far east the long way round. Hitler should have done it.

Kev

But it wasn't the real prize he was after. That was the lebensraum in the East and that was what he was now planning for. Losing Gibraltar would have been a major blow to us because Churchill based much of Britain's war policy at that time on keeping the supply lines to the empire open but in itself was inconsequential to Hitler because that was not the area he was interested in. Remember the Desert war only began because of Mussolini.

[smc]

Adding to the above I'd also add that the Germans expected Spain to be neutral as early as January 1939 Hitler had mentioned that he expected little more of the country though Franco's stance did change with the defeat of the West. With Spanish help the Germans did maintain an extensive intelligence operation within the country and were able to monitor all the comings and goings through the straits. They also surreptiously used Spanish harbours to repair and refuel their U-Boats an offer that was later to be extended to surface ships.

Germany also relied upon Spain to supply wolfram, iron ore, mercury and zinc ore though the Spanish were poor enough/canny enough to insist on upfront payments - particularly in military equipment, food and oil - rather than the credit system Germany used elsewhere, which meant they often stopped shipments if the Germans did not pay up. It also enabled the Allies to buy stocks to prevent them falling into German hands.

Also returning to the conditions of the Spanish entry into the war it does seem both sides demanded too much from each other and then refused to back down. Spain wanted the bulk of North Africa mainly from the Vichy French as well as parts of Cameroon. The Germans themselves demanded the cession of one of the Canary Islands as a base if they were to help the Spanish recapture some of their demands.

[kfz]

Originally Posted by smc

But it wasn't the real prize he was after. That was the lebensraum in the East and that was what he was now planning for. Losing Gibraltar would have been a major blow to us because Churchill based much of Britain's war policy at that time on keeping the supply lines to the empire open but in itself was inconsequential to Hitler because that was not the area he was interested in. Remember the Desert war only began because of Mussolini.

Not really much of an arguement really, if Hitler wasnt interested in the West or the Western Desert he shouldnt have been there, a much smaller investment in Gib than what was put into Tunisa would have had a much more of a payback.

Would it be neccesary to bring Spain into the war, ti invade Gib, just wanted free passage over a neutrals land.

Kev

[smc]

Originally Posted by kfz

Not really much of an arguement really, if Hitler wasnt interested in the West or the Western Desert he shouldnt have been there, a much smaller investment in Gib than what was put into Tunisa would have had a much more of a payback.

He was only in the Western Desert because Mussolini's failed invasion of Egypt which gave the British the excuse to move westwards across the desert and thus threaten was then pro-Axis terrirtory held in the hands of Italy, Vichy France and Spain. If Mussolini hadn't done so then the British would have just sat there and defended their supply route through Suez. Hitler came to the rescue because Mussolini was an ally and because Hitler believed he owed him a few favours during both Austrian and Czech crisis. Remember Hitler bailed him out twice; Greece and the Western Desert; as well as rescuing him after his deposition in 1943. Lastly most of the discussions with Franco happened from about September 1940 to January 1941 just prior to the Italian defeat in the desert that forced Hitler to send over German troops to bolster his ally.

Originally Posted by kfz

Would it be neccesary to bring Spain into the war, ti invade Gib, just wanted free passage over a neutrals land.

Kev

Having won a civil war playing the nationalist card against supranational communist backed opponents, Franco's legitimacy would be somewhat strained if he let a foreign army in to march through his country to take an objective which may not have been returned to Spain - the Germans may well have decided to keep Gibraltar as a base much as they wanted the cession of an island in the Canaries. As I mentioned above, the British would no doubt have supplied Basque, Catalan, anti-Franco Republican supporters and nationalistic Spaniards in order to cause no end of problem to both the German supply line and Franco's regime itself possibly embroiling the country in yet another civil war in the midst of a world war and perhaps enabling Britain an excuse to regain a foothold onto the continent which is precisely what they did a few months later in Greece.

At the turn of 1940-41 the Axis were on the offensive and the British on the defensive and barely in a position to take the initiative as the disastrous campaign in Greece was to prove. Hitler at that time was still making the decision on when and where to move and only having to react because of Mussolini's incompetence. He was gearing up for Barbarossa and perhaps feared a festering sore at the other end of Europe which had done for Napoleon when he had invaded Russia in 1812. Better to leave things as they were with a head of state who openly encouraged pro-German attitudes within the country and gave him some valuable services in return.

We know with hindsight what the result was, Hitler and others didn't have that luxury.

[raf]

Originally Posted by smc

I would also suggest you have a close look at the geography, physical and political, of a country before making the statement of just walking in. There would be the Pyrenees to start with, and the mountainous interior of central and southern Spain often cut with fast flowing gorged rivers before they even got to Gibraltar which is at the extreme south western tip of the country. Furthermore their lines of communications would go through Basque and Catalan areas, both inhabitated by anti-Franco peoples whom the British would probably waste little time in enlisting to help their cause with a little guerilla activity. Three years of civil war fighting had trained enough people in the art of guerilla activity and had also probably left enough weapons and explosives circulating within society for people to get hold of.

why would he choose the root hanibel did when he could have used. the med and land on either the east or south coast ??

[smc]

Originally Posted by raf

why would he choose the root hanibel did when he could have used. the med and land on either the east or south coast ??

British sea power perhaps? They largely controlled the Mediterranean at the time especially after removing the Italian threat at Taranto in November 1940 and destroying the French Fleet at Mers el-Kebir in July 1940 - incidentally carried out by the naval force stationed at Gibraltar.

Which also mitigated against a siege as the British navy were in a position to defend and supply their base.

[Jan7]

This post in other Forum, the WAF seems more interesting....Operation Felix: Hitler's key to victory - Wehrmacht-Awards.com Militaria Forums

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Jan.