defensive lines

[raf]

we have spoken about strategic defensive lines before and how they dont work ????

the maginot line...did work as it caused the germans to attack elsewhere and the parts were the germans/italians did attack the defence was a success.

i know there are plenty examples of failed strategic lines but


wasnt the stategic defensive lines built around stalingrad and mosscow a success

thanks

[Paul Reed]

Hitler and Gothic Lines in Italy also come to mind... but airpower is one weapon that largely makes these static lines redundant, plus the ability to drop airborne forces behind them.

[4th wilts]

i believe the kursk and to a point moscow and leningrad were used to break up and blunt attacks.and then give jerry a good counterattack,so in a sense imo the fixed defences did indeed work.but at heavy cost,yours,lee.

[Harry Ree]

The Maginot Line as a static defence line was totally inflexible.Garrison manpower were holed up in them and the Germans bypassed them.They were "picked off the vine" at a time to suit the invader.They were safely encircled and when they finally fell, were taken from behind at little cost to the invader from the very rear areas which they were designed to secure.They were not equipped to to deal with an enemy to the rear.

The other blunder was to install a permanent line against what was thought to be the main thrust of the enemy and depend on a flank to be covered by an understanding of neutrality.Such was the case in relying on the neutrality status of Belgium.

France would have been better to invest in the funding of the Maginot Line in more quality tanks but when the line was envisaged the concept of Blitzkrieg type warfare was not tried and tested. Abeit some students of warfare were convinced that the method of warfare would change through tank utilisation after ideas were gleaned from an element of tank operations that were experienced in the Great War.

Apparently De Gaulle and Patton shared this view when they met on a tank course in 1923 at the Saumur Cavalry Barracks.

The best static defence line is the "tank trap", and an extended one at that.The best example being the 20 mile tank trap of the English Channel.Had Germany had this type of defence line on the Eastern Front, then the Red Army would have found it very hard to roll in to Germany as they did.Britain was fortunate to have this natural defence line.

The defence lines thrown up by the Russians in the early part of the war were defended courageously but it was a courage that could have been utilised with a better strategy.At this time the Red Army stood fast as much as it could in line with the policy of the military leadership and the direction of Stalin.In many cases this stategy resulted in encirclement which saw hugh Red Army losses in dead,wounded and captured (3.9 million to the end of 1941 )

I think from this point,the Red Army conducted their field operations in such a manner to ensure that their units were never encircled and that requires mobile flexible defences.On the other hand, Hitler never agreed to a withdrawal in any circumstance (perhaps Mortain in the end) to prevent encirclement which the leadership in the field clearly recognised.Hence the Germans tended themselves to lose men and materiel due to encirclement when following strict orders to holdfast.When the Russians were defending Stalingrad they used the defence line of the Volga to ensure they could supply and hold on to the west bank but when the Germans were encircled at Stalingrad, they only had the promises of Goering to maintain their existence as fighting units from the air.

History records that the Moscow front did not fall to the Germans due to the timely presence of 250.000 troops that were released from the Russian /Japanese border.Stalin after receiving the assurance that Japan was not interested in Russian territory from his master spy, Richard Sorge in Tokio was able to deploy these trained winter troops against German units who were devoid of winter clothing.

[4th wilts]

rommel got a bloody nose at medenine,so did his 3 panzer divs.that was fixed defences was it not.yours,lee.

[4th wilts]

in fact ,first alamain was fixed defences as well.yours,lee.

[raf]

theres examples on both sides if fixed lines work or not, kev has good knowledge on this.

but if the germans didnt attack the maginot line, then how can it be classed as a failure, it did its job to me as the germans cleverly went through belgium which the french/british antisipated

[4th wilts]

you would have thought the allies would have known better.ignoring belgian neutrallity again,never.yours,lee.