weapons shortage

[raf]

im trying to figure out

after dunkirk the uk were very short of arms. rifles, guns, tanks, trucks but it was mostley the B.E.F who were equiped at dunkirk.

the US sent us a million rifles, surely they could have sent alot more and better at that time. if they did why anounce it was a million ww1 rifles.

ive seen some figures before on this forum that states we had quite a few AA's, guns, cannons tanks etc after dunkirk. but again i read there was only one armed division montys.

sapper adds that he only had 1 bullet. were were all the rest i find it hard to believe with our industry and our build upto wwII that after a few months we had nothing.

if the battle of france had continued for a few more months are we to say that the uk troop would have run out.

isnt it the case that we had the equipment but was supplied to our other allies

thanks

[jacobtowne]

the US sent us a million rifles, surely they could have sent alot more and better at that time. if they did why anounce it was a million ww1 rifles.

Better? The only rifle I can think of at the moment that might have been both obsolete and in stores is the M1917 (British Pattern 1914). In 1940, at the time of Dunkirk, the majority of U.S. infantry were armed with M1903 Springfields. Production of the M1 Garand was at this point only a dribble compared to what would be needed later.

JT

[PsyWar.Org]

After the First World War the British Government came to the conclusion that there would not be another major war for at least 20 years. Therefore, the military was scaled back dramatically. The problem was that every year after the same conclusion was reached.

It was not really until the Munich Agreement in September 1938, that Britain really started to re-arm itself.

My grandfather's RE company in France at the time of Dunkirk, had to hold a bridge for a short period until relieved by the infantry. He was issued with five bullets!
He was rather proud of the fact that he managed to get back to England with his Enfield (and five bullets).

A lot of equipment was lost in France but not everything was sent to the continent in the first place. Also after Dunkirk, with the threat of invasion, the idea was to get every man in the country armed with something more than just a pitchfork. That being the purpose of the small arms shipped from the US.

The British Government deliberately spread a rumour that they were receiving thousands of Tommy Guns (Thompson sub-machine guns) from the US, in a bid to frighten Jerry.

Lee

[Owen]

Some of the Tommy Guns went to France with the Second BEF as this photo shows.

A soldier of the 52nd Lowland Division poses with his Thompson sub-machine gun and a Bedford MWD truck in France, 13 June 1940.

[PsyWar.Org]

A great photo Owen.
Here's another one of a Tommy Gun in action:



PS I should explain that's from a German propaganda leaflet, hence the "Wanted for murder" nonsense!

[sapper]

I have never seen a Tommy gun, and I doubt that very many other service men have!
Sapper

[Paul Reed]

Originally Posted by sapper

I have never seen a Tommy gun, and I doubt that very many other service men have!
Sapper

Brian - they were very common in infantry battalions, even in 1944-45.

This is one with a soldier in Italy, April 1944:

[kfz]

Originally Posted by raf

im trying to figure out

after dunkirk the uk were very short of arms. rifles, guns, tanks, trucks but it was mostley the B.E.F who were equiped at dunkirk.

the US sent us a million rifles, surely they could have sent alot more and better at that time. if they did why anounce it was a million ww1 rifles.

ive seen some figures before on this forum that states we had quite a few AA's, guns, cannons tanks etc after dunkirk. but again i read there was only one armed division montys.

sapper adds that he only had 1 bullet. were were all the rest i find it hard to believe with our industry and our build upto wwII that after a few months we had nothing.

if the battle of france had continued for a few more months are we to say that the uk troop would have run out.

isnt it the case that we had the equipment but was supplied to our other allies

thanks

Raf,
Its hard to beleive but its true, the land army was in a sorry state. United States was no better, probably worse shape. THe BEF was a tiny force, on paper it looked well equiped but in real terms it was far from ideal and it was so small it didnt have a great deal of equipment to start with.

Kev

[Owen]

The Unofficial Tommy Gun Page

Between February 1940 and the end of the year, the British placed a total of thirteen orders for 107,500 Thompsons with contracts totaling $21,502,758.

From George Forty's Handbook of The British Army he says on page 197 about the Rifle No.3 Mk 1, P14 that some 785,000 were sold to the UK from the USA.

More on P14,
>> P14

To summarise, the P14 is a British design, based on a German action, manufactured in America!

[spidge]

There seems to be a lot of cross information doesn't there. All may not have been aware what actually was available at the time however by the information below there were stocks in storage and stocks that had arrived.

Quote:
Originally Posted by freebird
Hey don't forget the Canadian 1st & 2nd div's were in Britain in the fall of 1940!

1st Canadian Div December 1939
2nd Canadian Div August 1940
Australian 18th Brigade
Australian 25th Brigade (Raised in England)


2nd Echelon, 2nd NZEF - On assembly on 12 January 1940arrived in England 16th June 1940 Quote:
Papakura:
'C' Squadron, Divisional Cavalry Regiment
21st Infantry Battalion
HQ NZE (details)
7th Field Company, NZE
11th Forestry Company, NZE

Ngaruawahia:
HQ NZA (details)
HQ and 31st, 32nd Batteries,
7th Anti-Tank Regiment, NZA
5th Field Regiment, NZA

Palmerston North:
28th (Maori) Infantry Battalion

Trentham:
HQ NZ Division (details)
Divisional Signals (details)
22nd Infantry Battalion
HQ 5th Infantry Brigade (4th and 5th Anti-Tank Companies attached)

Burnham:
23rd Infantry Battalion
HQ Railway Construction and Maintenance Group
9th Railway Survey Company, NZE
10th Railway Construction Company, NZE

Added to this there were 130,000 French troops lifted from Dunkirk.

In June 1940 the British Army had 22 infantry divisions and one armoured division. The infantry divisions were, on average, at half strength, had only one-sixth of their normal artillery and were almost totally lacking in transport. There was a critical shortage of ammunition such that none could be spared for practice. VII corps was formed to control the Home Forces' general reserve, and included the First Armoured Division.

Although:
These munitions etc were received from the US just after Dunkirk in July 1940"

- 785,000 .30 cal. Lee-Enfield rifles,
- 130 million rounds .30 ammo.
- 87,000 machine guns (various types)
- 6 million rounds .30 cal. machine gun ammo.
- 900 75mm field guns
- 1,075,000 75mm shells
- 308 3" Stokes mortars
- 97,680 Stokes mortar shells
- 25,000 BAR's
- 21,000 revolvers
- 1,000,000 revolver cartridges

So not quite defenceless one would think.