unknown war graves? or are they?

[EmersonBigguns]

Somewhat unrelated to the topic but also along the same lines as Sappers post, due to the fluid nature of warfare and terrain often changing hands quite frequently, quite often men are buried hastily, somtimes alone, sometimes in mass graves, sometimes by civilians, and sometimes by the enemy. Their locations are never recorded, or recorded poorly, thus many are determined as MIA.

It seems every few years the body of American soldiers in particular are being found in areas such as the Hurtgen Forest or the Ardennes. Google "Robert Cahow" for a recent example of this.

[sapper]

Hi Robert..... Hope you are well mate.
The thing about these missing in action casualties, is that it matters little, if we keep their memory alive. That I try to do at every opportunity, and will continue to as long as I am around. I have personal knowledge of men being blown away completely. I had been talking to them seconds before it happened. They were fine men,

Two Sappers in the hand to hand battle of the "Bloodiest Square Mile in Normandy" The Chateau de la Londe vanished, and were never found.
Sapper

[sapper]

THis is the imnsignia that we wore back in 1944
Sapper

[Harry Ree]

Originally Posted by nickb

Hi everyone thought I had posted this yesterday but cannot find it with a search so am posting it again. as the title suggests it relates to War graves of unknown Airmen but I thought it would get more traffic in the General area so sorry in advance if it has been place in the wrong area. Also if my thread is being moderated before being posted, sorry....

Unknown war graves? Or are they?

This is a question i would like to throw out to everyone.
I have been researching the loss of a Halifax V LK635 of 428 Sqn RCAF 6 Group bomber command on 22/23 Sept 1943. Aboard was my wife's great uncle F/Sgt James Wright RAF.
LK635 was one of 26 bombers lost that night in a raid on Hanover. But she was listed as lost without trace. A short while ago i made contact with a researcher in Germany, he has located 4 graves amongst his archives that state "An Airman of the 1939-1945 war, 22 September 1943". it seems that LK635 is the only aircraft that a crashsite cannot be allocated and those 4 graves are the only graves that he cannot atribute to a particular aircraft.
In order to verify his research we must firstly know the original burial place for these men, before they were re interned in Hanover.
Now I have been in touch with the CWGC and according to them under the Data protection act and the freedom of information act they will not give out the original burial place. But one cancels out the other or is that just too simplistic? from looking at the internet i am almost certain they do hold this information.
I know that it is impractical to maybe exhume these bodies and this is not my intention but having these men unknown for 65 years it would be fitting to show that there is a possibility of their names being known.
Having the burial places would not contravene the data protection act surely.
Has anyone come across this problem during their research? Has anyone overcome any beaurocracy of this kind? Or does anyone know what my next step should be?

From reading posts on this forum I know there are some very knowledgeable members on here and hopefully some one can help.

Thanks in advance of any answers

No 428 (RCAF) Squadron Association might be able to help in addition to what is recorded in the ORB (Chorley)

Write to Mr A J R Robson, 7, Camberley Close, Hucclecote, Gloucester.GL3 3PQ.

There is also the Middleton St George Memorial Association

Reading through the post, I feel that the four crew were intially buried by the German authorities as unidentified.Had their remains been identified but "lost" from when they were intially buried to when they were transferred to Hanover, then at one of the two Hanover military cemeteries would be a "special memorial" to them.The British Government would have been aware of these facts.

If the crew were identified at initial burial then their names would have been known to the British Government via Switzerland who were acting as the Protecting Power.However some of this information, both unidentified and identified casuaties was not ascertained until after the war when RAF field teams sought to account for every casualty.

There is also another source of information which may require deeper research.The German local authorities were meticulous in the maintance of records such as burials etc.Given that, I would say that within the "catchment area" for the concentrated burials for Hanover will lie the administrative area where the four airman were intially buried.

I can see why the CWGC is reluctant to give information since an "unidentified casualty" does not have a NOK.But I cannot see why the information on the site of the initial burial is regarded as sensitive to any bona fide researcher.Had seven sets of remains been established from the aircraft then there is a possibiliy that the crew would have shared a common grave and the seven individuals would have been named on a common tombstone.

For example in the case of an SOE duty aircraft which I was researching,the total number of remains were found and that included two French secret agents.The whole crew and the two French secret agents share a common tombstone but have individual small plaques covering the grave.Had the sets of remans been less than the known number on the aircraft (from the Squadron ORB then without postive identification they would have been categorised as "unknowns".I am speaking off the cuff on this but have a photograph to illustrate my point but this is not to hand (before the days of the "digital")

Good luck with you research.

[AndyBaldEagle]

I think you will find the Freedom of Information Act does not cover the CWGC as it is not a publi body, such as a council etc, however they could argue that as they have records obtained from official government sources (army etc) then they do come under it. As for the DPA I will have to look it up and see where and which of the eight principles they feel they might be breaching!

Good luck

Andy

[EmersonBigguns]

Well said as usual, Brian. As long as we remember them, they will live forever.

Give my best to Sheila.

-Robert

[sapper]

Will do, and we both wish you well my old friend.
Sapper and Sheila.

[nickb]

Thanks to all who have contibuted so far for your comments. To add to a couple of the points:
I totally agree if someone is thinking of these men and women then they will never be forgotton. I have been doing my family history for nigh on 20 years and it has always been my aim that non of my ancestors be forgotten. So with people like the members of this and many other forums " Long shall they live".
It makes alot of sense that if all 7 crew had been found, the grave may have named them, this is a point i had not considered and is worth bearing in mind.
my German contact is in the process of rechecking his notes and checking out official records/witnesses. As i stated it may be that the other 3 have been lost without trace or are still in the aircraft. I can imaging how far an aircraft can bury itself falling from 15,000ft.
but my point still remains that i see no reason why the original burial place is a state secret.

Nick