unknown war graves? or are they?

[nickb]

Hi everyone thought I had posted this yesterday but cannot find it with a search so am posting it again. as the title suggests it relates to War graves of unknown Airmen but I thought it would get more traffic in the General area so sorry in advance if it has been place in the wrong area. Also if my thread is being moderated before being posted, sorry....

Unknown war graves? Or are they?

This is a question i would like to throw out to everyone.
I have been researching the loss of a Halifax V LK635 of 428 Sqn RCAF 6 Group bomber command on 22/23 Sept 1943. Aboard was my wife's great uncle F/Sgt James Wright RAF.
LK635 was one of 26 bombers lost that night in a raid on Hanover. But she was listed as lost without trace. A short while ago i made contact with a researcher in Germany, he has located 4 graves amongst his archives that state "An Airman of the 1939-1945 war, 22 September 1943". it seems that LK635 is the only aircraft that a crashsite cannot be allocated and those 4 graves are the only graves that he cannot atribute to a particular aircraft.
In order to verify his research we must firstly know the original burial place for these men, before they were re interned in Hanover.
Now I have been in touch with the CWGC and according to them under the Data protection act and the freedom of information act they will not give out the original burial place. But one cancels out the other or is that just too simplistic? from looking at the internet i am almost certain they do hold this information.
I know that it is impractical to maybe exhume these bodies and this is not my intention but having these men unknown for 65 years it would be fitting to show that there is a possibility of their names being known.
Having the burial places would not contravene the data protection act surely.
Has anyone come across this problem during their research? Has anyone overcome any beaurocracy of this kind? Or does anyone know what my next step should be?

From reading posts on this forum I know there are some very knowledgeable members on here and hopefully some one can help.

Thanks in advance of any answers

[Paul Reed]

I had not heard of this issue until recently.

I was not aware the Data Protection Act related to wargraves records, or for that matter people who were deceased.

If it was me I would take it up with your MP.

[sapper]

One of the saddest results of war, is that term MIA. Missing in action. Nine times out of ten it is because no trace of the body can be found., That poses the question "How is it that they were never found"? Simply this, they were blown to smithereens.

If you take a look at the casualty lists, If they are anything like the ones I have for my Company. you will find a very many MIAs. I have a suspicion, that in many cases the war graves do not contain the remains of the men that fell.
Sapper

[kfz]

The data protection act actually aids you in this situation, if this information exists ou have the right to view it. You must be next of kin, as long as you can prove its your information then they 'Have' to show it to you.


Kevin

[nickb]

Many thanks to you both for the quick reply.

Paul: I had not thought of using my MP for a matter such as this. I too never thought that these 2 acts would relate to dead people other than within the usual 30 year restriction that we find on most records.

Sapper: I quite agree with your suggestion that many were just blown to bits, so leaving no body to bury. I have copies of pictures of the 4 graves and as there are only 4 we can assume that the other 3 crew are still in the aircraft or as you say there is no trace of a body.

there must be many other graves that have been marked incorrectly and maybe in an ideal world we should known exactly who is buried where, but more so with WW1 graves many men just simply disappeared. But when details could point to a known person surely this should be followed up. As I have found there are many people trying to correct this but it seems that cost could be the deciding factor here.

In my own personal case I know much more research is needed before I can say yes it is them but without the basic facts from the CWGC the spanner is defineately in the works.

This is why I started this thread, so that people become aware of the problem and maybe it can be corrected.

thanks again and hopefully others will join in.

[nickb]

Hi Kevin we were both posting at the same time. below is the reply i recieved from the CWGC. the data protection act does work in your favour if it is your information. but this is foe a KIA family member. As far as i am aware only the CWGC hold the data to show from where the bodies were exhumed. but read their reply and let me know what you think.



"I regret that the Commission is unable to accede to your request regarding the original burial place of the four unknown airmen in Hanover Military Cemetery.

Information on Commonwealth war casualties was passed to the Commission by the predecessors of today’s Ministry of Defence.

As a result of the introduction of the 1998 Data Protection Act and the 2000 Freedom of Information Act in the United Kingdom, the Ministry of Defence considers that it, as employers of service personnel, has a duty of care to its employees, which extends beyond death.

All records of deceased personnel are accorded the same level of care and confidentiality as those relating to living employees. It has, therefore, been agreed that the Commission will follow the Ministry of Defence’s lead, and is now only able to provide information if it is already in the public domain. Unfortunately, these unknown airmen's previous places of burial are not in the public domain, and this means that we would not be able to provide the information you have requested.

[CROONAERT]

Originally Posted by Paul Reed

I had not heard of this issue until recently.

I was not aware the Data Protection Act related to wargraves records, or for that matter people who were deceased..

You saw my response from them in a similar vein, Paul. Well, I got an update - check your PMs on your Ypres forum. Seems that they can be "swayed" from following this policy (to an extent) with a bit of gentle (and polite) nagging.

Dave.

[nickb]

Croonaert checked out your other posts and what was your plan B? did they give you the info from the original burial records?

They are adament i cannot have the info and from this perspective they hold all the cards

[Rich Payne]

I've read this thread with interest. Just what is it that they're afraid of ?

I can't imagine what anyone could do with the information that could possibly be a problem and I cannot understand why the fact that it did not perchance enter the "Public Domein" sixty years ago should make it so secret now. Some men's original burial places were mentioned in documents and others not.

It all seems particularly obscure in the case of unknown casualties.

I have a passing interest in this aspect of post-war reburials because I have tried to locate where the 2nd Division had casualties in Belgium in 1940. Nearly all BEF casualties away from the WW1 battlefields were moved to Leopoldsburg. A list of the original churchyards etc. would make fascinating reading for me and would be purely useful as a research tool.

Could it be that the original files contain details of the remains and completeness of bodies etc. and they feel that this could be distressing to surviving relatives ? I can't imagine that there are photographs or anything in the files.

Maybe they just dumped the files years ago and are too ashamed to admit it ?

[geoff501]

I also believed that the Data Protection act applied to 'living individuals' - a phrase used in the acts wording. CWGC have previously claimed that FOIA does not apply to them since they are not a government department, the records they 'own' are no longer MOD records. Write to your MP.