Biggest Mistake of WWII

[morse1001]

Is this a trick question???

No!

[Friedrich H]

Yes, Italy did declare war on the US on December 1941.

[jamesicus]

..... did Italy declare war on the US????
Yes -- both Italy and Germany declared war on the United States on 11 December 1941.

[spidge]

Originally posted by Gotthard Heinrici@Jun 22 2005, 02:18 AM
One question: did Italy declare war on the US????

Quoted post

Hi Gotthard,

I wrongly assumed a long time devotee would have known that so I thought there was a "clanger" coming.

Morse1001 must have known you didn't know as he answered for you.

I thought the posts had been mixed up!!!!!!

Apologies.

[Gotthard Heinrici]

Sorry for the confusion over the posts. It was a genuine question!! I knew that Germany declared war but I didnt know if Italy followed suit. There are many things I have yet to learn , which is why I am on this site so often!!!!

[spidge]

Originally posted by Gotthard Heinrici@Jun 22 2005, 06:31 PM
Sorry for the confusion over the posts. It was a genuine question!! I knew that Germany declared war but I didnt know if Italy followed suit. There are many things I have yet to learn , which is why I am on this site so often!!!!

Quoted post

That is why I am here too.

There are many Commonwealth countries who are much maligned (due to histories selective reporting), however I am going to push the Aussie barrow right up the hill in memory of my father.

He and his digger mates who went to North Africa and beyond, young and fit, like many others on both sides, returned home with the visible and mental scars of battle and succeeded in building a strong family unit.

We all have questions, we all have statements to make, we all want to be informed and assist where we can.

The wonder of the internet in "this forum" delivers immediacy from around the globe on any topic and a few extra's.

I do and never have had enough time to be an internet junkie. With nearly 1100 members you can nearly do 3 years of surfing in one day as everybody views a percentage of differing data and feeds the hunger.

There is so much (good & bad) I want to comment on however time is a never changing master to many of us.

Look forward to your posts & comments.

(By the way, I noticed the Irish flag. My mother's family heritage goes way back to Enniskillen in Fermanagh of the 1700's).

P.S. Forgive me for asking - Is your post name representative of the German 4th Army General or is it coincidental with an extra "T"

[Kiwiwriter]

Originally posted by spidge+Jun 21 2005, 01:45 PM-->

Is this a trick question???

Quoted post

[/b]

Italy declared war on December 11, 1941. Mussolini mae the usual speech from the Palazza Venezia's balcony, but he saw the crowd was offering sullen apathy instead of the usual wild cheering, so he kept his speech short -- five minutes.

[Gotthard Heinrici]

Originally posted by spidge+Jun 22 2005, 11:42 AM-->

That is why I am here too.

There are many Commonwealth countries who are much maligned (due to histories selective reporting), however I am going to push the Aussie barrow right up the hill in memory of my father.

He and his digger mates who went to North Africa and beyond, young and fit, like many others on both sides, returned home with the visible and mental scars of battle and succeeded in building a strong family unit.

We all have questions, we all have statements to make, we all want to be informed and assist where we can.

The wonder of the internet in "this forum" delivers immediacy from around the globe on any topic and a few extra's.

I do and never have had enough time to be an internet junkie. With nearly 1100 members you can nearly do 3 years of surfing in one day as everybody views a percentage of differing data and feeds the hunger.

There is so much (good & bad) I want to comment on however time is a never changing master to many of us.

Look forward to your posts & comments.

(By the way, I noticed the Irish flag. My mother's family heritage goes way back to Enniskillen in Fermanagh of the 1700's).

P.S. Forgive me for asking - Is your post name representative of the German 4th Army General or is it coincidental with an extra "T"

Quoted post

[/b]

Thank you Spidge!! That is indeed some heritage, going back the 1700's!

As for my username, it is representative of the Commander of the 4th Army and later Army Group Vistula, who in my HUMBLE opinion, was one of the most underrated Generals of the War, certainly on the Eastern Front. Not for him the glories of Guderian or Manstein but a long defensive war to be fought.

[Friedrich H]

As for my username, it is representative of the Commander of the 4th Army and later Army Group Vistula, who in my HUMBLE opinion, was one of the most underrated Generals of the War, certainly on the Eastern Front. Not for him the glories of Guderian or Manstein but a long defensive war to be fought.

Heinrici was one of the best generals of the war, no doubt. And the myths around the German war machine are precisely because the rôles of men like Heinrici or Schörner are not usually considered when studying WWII, when Manstein and Guderian are. This means that we read the latter's memoirs, that describe all the glory of Blitzkrieg and German victories. But what about the Germans' great defeats and the excellence of their enemies?

[Kiwiwriter]

Originally posted by Friedrich H@Jun 22 2005, 01:37 PM

Heinrici was one of the best generals of the war, no doubt. And the myths around the German war machine are precisely because the rôles of men like Heinrici or Schörner are not usually considered when studying WWII, when Manstein and Guderian are. This means that we read the latter's memoirs, that describe all the glory of Blitzkrieg and German victories. But what about the Germans' great defeats and the excellence of their enemies?

Quoted post

Very true, and Goebbels is responsible for that. Most of the film footage audiences have seen since the war has been newsreel stuff, and the German newsreels were propaganda pieces to emphasize the all-conquering nature of the mighty Wehrmacht -- soldiers goose-stepping into Paris, diving Ju 87s, panzers driving across terrain, and so on. They didn't show that 90 percent of the Wehrmacht was horse-drawn, they never showed the exhausted troops in defeat and retreat, and they certainly never showed the brutality and horror of Nazi occupation.

American and British camera footage made the Allies the good guys -- grinning GIs spooning out C-rations to starving Italian civilians, or Tommies being irreverent to a captured portrait of Hitler -- but they generally downplayed the glory and the conquering nature of their armies in favor of the violence of battle.

The result is that teenagers of all ages who watched WW2 movies and documentaries for the first time saw the Wehrmacht beating the tar out of everybody, wearing glittering uniforms, driving shining and powerful tanks and planes, while the advancing Americans and British, in their OD uniforms, steel pot and sauce-pan helmets, and banged-up jeeps and Shermans, looked grubbier and far less powerful and victorious. The Germans are creating a "New Order." The American and British troops were just doing an unpleasant job. The Germans were rebuilding the world. The GI and the Tommy just wanted to get their souvenir of their travels and go home.

And, to be sure, the Germans repeatedly executed stunning movements, arrows streaking across maps that are the delight of schoolboys, which the Allies for the most part did not. Tell a 13-year-old first discovering "the big war" that studying it is mostly about training, logistics, and unimaginable gore and horror, and he'll turn off. Tell him it's about cool tanks conquering half of Europe in a matter of days and his eyes light up.

So the average "war buff" knows about Guderian, Rommel, and Patton (from watching that movie eight dozen times), but doesn't bother with more important and often duller subjects...like generals who figure out the best way to hold a line under massive odds, with minimal supplies.