Biggest Mistake of WWII

[BeppoSapone]

Originally posted by the_historian@Nov 8 2004, 01:52 PM

You mean myself and every lecturer and guest speaker at the Centre for Second World War Studies at the University of Glasgow. In fact, you are the only one I have ever met who holds that view.
America cared enough about the Japanese presence in China when Zeros attacked an American ship in 1937-I forget its name unfortunately. It almost triggered war between them four years before Pearl Harbour-not my idea of isolationism.
I won't accept that American isolationism was chiefly to blame for WW2-it sounds too close to the current trend of blaming America for everything-nor that there is any distinction between pacifism and appeasement. I thought that fallacy had been destroyed by the Falklands War.
Anyway, we're a long way off the topic here....

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[BeppoSapone]

Originally posted by BeppoSapone+Nov 8 2004, 02:09 PM-->

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[/b]

How does saying that American Congress refused to ratify a treaty put forward by the US President and agreed by France and Britain mean that I "blame America for everything"?

"The Anglo-American Treaty of Guarantee" is a historical fact. Why don't you ask "every lecturer and guest speaker at the Centre for Second World War Studies at the University of Glasgow" about it?

It is no fallacy to say that appeasement and pacifism were not the same thing. The British government between the wars favoured appeasement. It is wrong to suggest that they were pacifists. Pacifists were in the NMWM, Peace Pledge Union etc etc. Not a majority in the Cabinet.

I still say that if America had done what the treaty promised we would not have had a Second World War. This is hardly "Yanks Go Home" sentiment. In fact, it is the reverse. It would have meant an American military presence in Europe from the end of WW1, not WW2.

[the_historian]

And you're still wrong......People spent decades whingeing about the American presence in Europe after WW2. Why would it have been different after WW1? There would have been no WW2 if Germany hadn't started WW1-where does America fit in there exactly?
Pacifism and appeasement are the same thing; always have been, always will be.
So can we get back on topic now?

[Kiwiwriter]

Originally posted by BeppoSapone@Nov 8 2004, 12:08 PM
Kiwiwriter

Most of what you say I would agree with. However, I would say that the situation was more the case in the 1930s. Certainly not at the time of the negotiations prior to the signing of the Treaty of Versailles. I still maintain what I said about Wilson, the USA and Isolationism.

Also, I would like to introduce a distinction between "Pacifism" and "Appeasement". The vast majority of British people were in favour of appeasement, but very few were pacifists.

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I was talking about the 1920s and 1930s, not about the climate at Versailles. One of the big things happening in America at the time of Versailles was a visceral American right-wing reaction to the end of the war...a desire to put it behind them. 1919 was the year of Versailles. In America it was also the year of the Boston Police Strike, the introduction of Prohibition, major race riots, the Red Scares, and the White Sox "dumping" the World Series at the payoff and behest of gamblers. Idealism and Wilson's vision were being rejected by most of the country. All Americans wanted to do in 1919 was bring the boys home and make them stop drinking. Except at a speakeasy.

[morse1001]

Hi Chaps,

I thought that I would put my twopence worth

May I say that we seem to be playing, what is known in Philosophy, as the "Foundation game". We seem to be going back further and further in time. If it goes back any further, someone will put the blame on the first amoeba!

[the_historian]

And why not?! :P

[BeppoSapone]

Originally posted by the_historian@Nov 8 2004, 02:31 PM
And you're still wrong......People spent decades whingeing about the American presence in Europe after WW2. Why would it have been different after WW1? There would have been no WW2 if Germany hadn't started WW1-where does America fit in there exactly?
Pacifism and appeasement are the same thing; always have been, always will be.
So can we get back on topic now?

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People spent decades whingeing about the American presence in Europe after WW2? Some in the "chattering classes" did, but the vast majority were pleased they were here. It would have been the same after WW1. But, you know, I would rather a few people complained about the GIs being 'over here' in the 1920s and 1930s than have to fight WW2.

An American force in Europe, coupled with the French Army and British Empire contingent would have stopped Hitler in his tracks and prevented WW2. Of course, WW1 had happened no matter what was decided at/after the peace negotiations. If Germany hadn't started WW1 (Good old Fischer!) I would think that America would have remained in isolation. However, it is one thing to be in isolation and quite another to seek to return to it after being involved.

Pacifism and appeasement are not the same thing at all. Never have been, and never will be, except to those with some sort of 'hidden agenda'. The typical pacifist has nothing to do with war, and will not serve in the army. Conscientious Objectors are pacifists, and were few in number in both wars, although there were more in WW2 than in WW1. People who favour appeasement, and I agree that they were a majority in the 1930s, feel that war is a pointless waste. However, when push comes to shove, and there is no alternative, they are prepared to fight.

If you were correct in what you say, that Britain was riddled with pacifists, we would never have fought WW2, let alone helped to win it. The country would have produced hundreds of thousands of "Conchies" This it did not do.

Have a nice day

[BeppoSapone]

Originally posted by morse1001@Nov 8 2004, 06:05 PM
Hi Chaps,

I thought that I would put my twopence worth

May I say that we seem to be playing, what is known in Philosophy, as the "Foundation game". We seem to be going back further and further in time. If it goes back any further, someone will put the blame on the first amoeba!

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I can't speak for the others, but I am only going back to the period of November 1918 to June 1919. All that I am saying is that the west made a big mistake after WW1.

Note that the same mistake was not made after WW2, and because of the "entangling alliance' of NATO you have never fought in a total war.

[BeppoSapone]

[/quote] I was talking about the 1920s and 1930s, not about the climate at Versailles. One of the big things happening in America at the time of Versailles was a visceral American right-wing reaction to the end of the war...a desire to put it behind them. 1919 was the year of Versailles. In America it was also the year of the Boston Police Strike, the introduction of Prohibition, major race riots, the Red Scares, and the White Sox "dumping" the World Series at the payoff and behest of gamblers. Idealism and Wilson's vision were being rejected by most of the country. All Americans wanted to do in 1919 was bring the boys home and make them stop drinking. Except at a speakeasy.

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[/quote]

Yes, I agree that the reaction you cite took place in America after WW1. This lack of idealism, and desire to retreat back into isolationism, probably has a lot to do with why Congress refused to ratify the treaty that we are speaking of.

However, my original point was that Woodrow Wilson made promises to protect the French borders and that America backed out of this.

I still maintain that if that treaty had been ratified WW2 would not have been fought.

[the_historian]

If you were correct in what you say, that Britain was riddled with pacifists, we would never have fought WW2, let alone helped to win it. The country would have produced hundreds of thousands of "Conchies" This it did not do.

Have a nice day

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Because thankfully they all rejoined the real world in enough time to realise their own stupidity/naivety.
Any chance you might now stop throwing tantrums long enough to get back on topic?