Should Old Veterans Forgive Their Former Enemies?

[von Poop]

Originally Posted by Tyrulf

how the british bask in their heroism and frankness really makes me sick.

And the Former aggressor nations attempting to change history and grabbing at straws and specific incidents to portray themselves as victims should make the rest of the world sick.

[Tyrulf]

there is no attempt to change history.The only attempt to change history is the british try to change the number of victims in dresden.


I do not want to depick whole germany as the victim.
But they were not the only ones who did atrocities and far not all of them were nazis.
Of course they were ( better to say the nazis , the common german did not want war ) the agressors ( although the nazi propaganda treated the war as an act of self protection)

The only nation who basks nowadays in heroism is england.

If you watch this forum you almost see no germans but just englishmen .

Germany has learned how abyss-deep and cruel every war is .

[angie999]

Tyrulf, before you come here to rant at us, do some research. For instance, see this old thread:

http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3836

particularly my post #13 on Dresden casualties and sources.

What are your sources?

[Gotthard Heinrici]

Originally Posted by Tyrulf

there is no attempt to change history.The only attempt to change history is the british try to change the number of victims in dresden.


I do not want to depick whole germany as the victim.
But they were not the only ones who did atrocities and far not all of them were nazis.
Of course they were ( better to say the nazis , the common german did not want war ) the agressors ( although the nazi propaganda treated the war as an act of self protection)

The only nation who basks nowadays in heroism is england.

If you watch this forum you almost see no germans but just englishmen .

Germany has learned how abyss-deep and cruel every war is .

Tyrulf, Whilst you may have a problem with the English "basking in heroism", the plain fact of the matter is that they can afford and deserve to. The fact remains that the British stood up to tyranny even when their allies fell away due to capitulation. When no-one else could or would stand up to Germany Great Britain and the Commonwealth refused to be browbeaten by an evil and repressive regime. When Russia was attacked in 1941 and fighting for its life Britain, even though they could ill-afford to, sent whatever aid it could both as a show of support and to help defeat the Germans. The Australians at Tobruk, the Canadians against the 12th SS, the RAF in 1940. No Tyrulf, they can and SHOULD bask in it and as an Irishman, the highest compliment I can pay is that if a war is starting there is no-one I would rather have alongside me in a trench than a British Tommy! Or an American G.I. for that matter

That being said you have made the point of Dresden. Fair enough. what about Conventry? Or London? Or Rotterdam? Was that fair either? Holland was a neutral country and the Germans ignored that. When the Allies overran Germany did they comb the population for "intelligentsia" and when they found them did they systematically shoot them? Ask any pole about that subject.

ask any American what the town of Malmedy means

Ask any French man about Oradour Sur Glane

Ask any Czech about Lidice

Ask any Russian about Baba Yar

Ask any Dutchman about the last winter of the war and virtual starvation

Yes other countries committed atrocities Tyrulf but as we say in Ireland "Dont try to claim the moral high ground whilst standing in a swamp"

You may see no germans, but there isnt just Englishmen. The of the most active posters (Kiwi and Jimbo) are American, I am Irish, Exxley is from France, Spidge is from Australia and many many others. We welcome all peoples on this board and if you will see we have engaged in a lively debate about Dresden. But to accuse the British (or indeed any of the Allies) of basking in Glory is just plain wrong.

[Tyrulf]

hitler did not invade britain because he thought england also being an aryan country and he tried to pursade it .He could have easily invade Britain in 1940 when the raf was weak but he didn't .Of course Britain was brave etc but thata just one aspect.

They may party or whatever they do and bask in glory , I don't doubt this - but don't bask in glory bombing a defeseless fugitive city .

But I would also like to be free to honour the german soldiers who antagonised the whole world for almost 6 years .
The common german soldiers fought brave and hard and did not know of Ausschwitz or of the paranoia of the Leader or about the repressive regime . I want to be proud of my grandpa who was brought to an gulag in sibiria but walked home to germany on foot .Although almost starving he saw a russian mother with her starving baby and gave the last things he got to her . When he was a young men he admired hitler , göbbles etc
So he was actually a nazi - but he never killed anyone or was able to kill a Jew . He never knew of KZ's etc
He was young and green .

[von Poop]

Originally Posted by Tyrulf

I want to be proud of my grandpa who was brought to an gulag in sibiria but walked home to germany on foot ..

And of course you can be mate, if you think the people on this forum don't understand that then you really are missing the point, do some more research and clarify your position rather than becoming so defensive, if you argue without understanding you get deeper and deeper into the swamp, I Had Grandfathers Who fought for the Allies and a Great Uncle who Died as an ss Sturmbannfuhrer in the wars final weeks, we're fully capable of appreciating the lot of the poor sods fighting the war but you just can't gloss over the broader social and political themes with a yes/no perspective, everythings painted in a hundred shades of grey.

[Gotthard Heinrici]

Originally Posted by Von Poop

And of course you can be mate, if you think the people on this forum don't understand that then you really are missing the point, do some more research and clarify your position rather than becoming so defensive, if you argue without understanding you get deeper and deeper into the swamp, I Had Grandfathers Who fought for the Allies and a Great Uncle who Died as an ss Sturmbannfuhrer in the wars final weeks, we're fully capable of appreciating the lot of the poor sods fighting the war but you just can't gloss over the broader social and political themes with a yes/no perspective, everythings painted in a hundred shades of grey.

Exactly!! We're not trying to dishonor anyone here Tyrulf and von Poop has said exactly what I'm thinking. you'll find us an understanding bunch and, as a person who has an interest in the Wehrmacht, I would be very interested to hear about your grandpas experiences.

[Kiwiwriter]

Originally Posted by Tyrulf

how where they able to count bodies in an absolutely destroyed city ?

every namable historian is of the opinion that 25000 are much to less

not to forget the extremely historical worth of the buildings

The German authorities in Dresden did a very good job of counting the bodies, and we have very good accounting from contemporary sources as to the casualty count, and how the number was inflated...and that is from historians I can name, including Richard J. Evans, Robin Neillands, and Frederick Taylor.

David Irving popularized the higher count, as part of his agenda to rehabilitate Nazism and to equate the Allies morally with the Nazis they fought, and to make the Allies worse, further saying that the deaths in Dresden were a greater toll than in the Nazi horror camps.

Also, on the architectural worth of buildings destroyed, residents of London, Coventry, and Warsaw would make the same complaint about the Germans, sadly.

I suggest you do a little bit more research on this subject.

[Kiwiwriter]

Originally Posted by Tyrulf

hitler did not invade britain because he thought england also being an aryan country and he tried to pursade it .He could have easily invade Britain in 1940 when the raf was weak but he didn't .Of course Britain was brave etc but thata just one aspect.

They may party or whatever they do and bask in glory , I don't doubt this - but don't bask in glory bombing a defeseless fugitive city .

But I would also like to be free to honour the german soldiers who antagonised the whole world for almost 6 years .
The common german soldiers fought brave and hard and did not know of Ausschwitz or of the paranoia of the Leader or about the repressive regime . I want to be proud of my grandpa who was brought to an gulag in sibiria but walked home to germany on foot .Although almost starving he saw a russian mother with her starving baby and gave the last things he got to her . When he was a young men he admired hitler , göbbles etc
So he was actually a nazi - but he never killed anyone or was able to kill a Jew . He never knew of KZ's etc
He was young and green .

Tyrulf, you have every reason to be proud of your grandfather and his service and sacrifice. I have no doubt that he did his job, and seems to have avoided being involved in atrocities or war crimes.

The issue some of your colleagues are having here is that you are running down their patriotism as well, which is unjustified. Nobody is "basking in glory" here. In addition, the harsh facts of World War II put the Nazi government and leadership in the moral abyss. Subjects are associated with the acts of their kings willy-nilly.

Nobody is assailing you for those acts, nor denying that the German people and armed forces showed ample skill, courage, and bravery, in battle, or that they suffered massive amounts of pain and suffering. They are objecting to your efforts to equate the two sides as a whole. As John Keegan writes, World War II was different. The moral issues and moral compass of the war must hold our attention. It is unfortunate that your grandfather was forced to expend his energies for an immoral cause. That fact should not obscure his personal courage, but we are forced to remember the dimension in which he displayed it.

A patriot is someone who loves his country. A nationalist is someone who hates everyone else's country. Being the former is fine. Being the latter is not.

Respectfully, I suggest you moderate your tone.

[Tyrulf]

Originally Posted by Kiwiwriter

The German authorities in Dresden did a very good job of counting the bodies, and we have very good accounting from contemporary sources as to the casualty count, and how the number was inflated...and that is from historians I can name, including Richard J. Evans, Robin Neillands, and Frederick Taylor.

David Irving popularized the higher count, as part of his agenda to rehabilitate Nazism and to equate the Allies morally with the Nazis they fought, and to make the Allies worse, further saying that the deaths in Dresden were a greater toll than in the Nazi horror camps.

Also, on the architectural worth of buildings destroyed, residents of London, Coventry, and Warsaw would make the same complaint about the Germans, sadly.

I suggest you do a little bit more research on this subject.

I read the ecyclopedia of ww II of the french historican Raymond Cartier.
There he mentioned 120 000 +
But it was published in 1960 so it might be there were new researches ..