Should Old Veterans Forgive Their Former Enemies?

[Tyrulf]

I don't want to run down anyones patriotism

I just want to critisize the point of view that the victims of Dresdens are a late try to make the cruelties equal of both sides .

[Kiwiwriter]

Originally Posted by Tyrulf

I read the ecyclopedia of ww II of the french historican Raymond Cartier.
There he mentioned 120 000 +
But it was published in 1960 so it might be there were new researches ..

And there you have it...go over Richard J. Evans, "Lying About Hitler," which details how he researched Dresden from the original documents for his expert testimony in the Irving-Lipstadt Trial, "The Bomber War," by Robin Neillands, and Frederick Taylor's book "Dresden." You will find the Evans books is well-footnoted and sourced, with a lot of original documents and testimony.

You will also find the transcripts of Evans' testimony and his entire report at:

http://www.hdot.org/ieindex.html

The bibliography of my web page has some other good sources on the bomber war in Europe.

[Kiwiwriter]

Originally Posted by Tyrulf

I don't want to run down anyones patriotism

I just want to critisize the point of view that the victims of Dresdens are a late try to make the cruelties equal of both sides .

Well, I think that was what you were saying, that at Dresden, the Allies killed more hundreds of thousands of people, and calling that a war crime, which would, by definition, equalize the moral balance between the Allies and the Nazis.

However, as I have indicated, more accurate scholarship shows that this was not the case.

[Tyrulf]

its not about numbers ( if so summarize all of the berlin , hamburg , munich etc bombings) and not to equalize war atrocities.

I just want to show that Britain also did war crimes and that they were not perfect and the absolute moral lies on their side if you understand what I say.

[angie999]

Originally Posted by Tyrulf

its not about numbers

I just want to show that Britain also did war crimes

Accurate numbers are always a factor in history. If you challenge a figure with another figure, you need to be able to justify if.

And bombing campaigns, by allies and Germans both, were never rgarded as war crimes under the law as it existed then.

[Tyrulf]

Originally Posted by Gotthard Heinrici

Exactly!! We're not trying to dishonor anyone here Tyrulf and von Poop has said exactly what I'm thinking. you'll find us an understanding bunch and, as a person who has an interest in the Wehrmacht, I would be very interested to hear about your grandpas experiences.

well

my grandpa was born in 1922 and died in 1998 when I was some 11 years old.
He was part of the russian invasion troops as far as I know . He studied chemistry while he lied in dugouts thats what I know of his army time and when he drove a truck his pal who was sitting beside him was shot because of an mg salve shot by partisans .
When he was captured he was send into an gulag in sibiria . During many of his buddies starved although they eat grass Helmut ( his name ) was able to flee .
He passed off as French and walked afoot to germany. He one time met a russian woman with a little baby nearly starving and gave some milk and something else , the only things he got, (to?) her.

After the war he openend a chemistry factory but in early 1970 during the oil crisis he got financiel troubles with banks. The factory was sold to another owner.

He made an adenotonsillectomy without narcosis because one nazi leader he admired made the same .After this he said he would never do it again

an oncel of mine took part in the poland feldzug . He told me that whenever he saw polish soldiers he and his squadron shot into the air to banish them .
But one time a pal of him went around a house corner and 3 meter next to him stood a polish soldier. They shot each other down.

In 1944 he was captured near an river he and some pals were not able to cross.He was then send to England into a war camp and then to a shorthanded scottish farmer as manpower where he worked hard but was being treated fair.

He told me that some british soldiers , mostly if they were drunken , shot into the crowd of "Krauts" which sat or stood in the warcamp

my other grandfather whom I never met because he died 1977 in an domestic coal fire was an spark in north france. A pal of him was send to the russian front after he was found sleeping while during work .He died in Stalingrad ...poor guy

one brother of him was injured during the french feldzug( drive) and was send home to recover.
But as he skied in the Alps he was viewed by an german officer and was send to Czech.
There he was killed by some czechs who allured him into an dandruff .

[Kiwiwriter]

Originally Posted by Tyrulf

its not about numbers ( if so summarize all of the berlin , hamburg , munich etc bombings) and not to equalize war atrocities.

I just want to show that Britain also did war crimes and that they were not perfect and the absolute moral lies on their side if you understand what I say.

Nobody is perfect. There are very few absolutes in the world. The Allies committed plenty of blunders and butcheries in the war.

But the issue here is the preponderance and convergence of evidence, and it comes down on the Allied side.

And if you are trying to accuse the British and Americans of committing heinous war crimes by wrecking Dresden, that evidence should be accurate and factual. Otherwise you are merely making gratuitous attacks...known in the vernacular as "cheap shots."

[Tyrulf]

you have to be neutral to see historical concerns correct..

the main reason why the bombing of dresden was so evil is that dresden was absolute unimportant in military sense and the british KNEW that. They bombed not only the trains etc but especially the historical core near the elbe within living many civilians.

it was not only a massacre.. it was a PLANNED massacre

[sapper]

If we bombed a hundred Dresdens, we would still not catch up with the German atrocities, and a thousand would not equal the loss of life in their war.

The bombing of cities...think about the term Coventrated after the bombing of Coventry... To learn that the people of Dresden "Germans" think they were hard done by, after what they did makes my stomach turn.

60 million died for Hitlers war. 60 Million for Gods sake. And we are supposed to be sorry for a few thousand enemy,You are joking? If you are serious? let me ask you to sit down quietly and listen very carefully, You may just discern the cries and screams of the women and children that were burned alive by the SS in the Church at Orador sur glan. Or a thousand other atrocities too numerous to mention. Lidice might help! Or Warsaw? or perhaps the hundreds of concentration and death camps scattered around Germany and Poland. do you want me to go on? The millions that died to bring this savage to heel.

For there are hundreds of pages of it.
Sapper

[Kiwiwriter]

Originally Posted by Tyrulf

you have to be neutral to see historical concerns correct..

the main reason why the bombing of dresden was so evil is that dresden was absolute unimportant in military sense and the british KNEW that. They bombed not only the trains etc but especially the historical core near the elbe within living many civilians.

it was not only a massacre.. it was a PLANNED massacre

Dresden was hit as a rail center and an industrial center...back to Taylor and Neillands, I'm afraid.

As for bombing civilians...by that point in the war, all the RAF Bomber Command did was mass bombing aimed at destroying whole cities.

Sorry, bad as Dresden was, and it was horrific, it does not compare with the systematic slaughter at Auschwitz, Sobibor, Babi Yar, and Chelmno.

And no, neutrality is not good...you would then be neutral between the fire and the fire brigade. Neutral between the police and the robber. Neutral between the doctor and the disease. I always tell young journalism students to forget about objectivity and neutrality. Nobody can be either of those. Just make the effort to be fair. Figure out where the two sides are coming from, understand their positions, and be fair and accurate in writing about them. That's the best you can do.