Should Old Veterans Forgive Their Former Enemies?

[sapper]

I see perfectly well that German Mothers view. I understand what she is saying, and I do have a lot of sympathy for her, and how she feels.

But the trouble arises when we recall the adoration of Adolph Hitler, when he was winning. The Germans turned out in their millions to hail him! No one raise any objections to this all-conquering hero then.

But for this little country off the North West of the continent of Europe, we had to stand-alone against a rampaging military nation bent on world domination. I volunteered to go to war, to remove the evil scourge of the dark medieval age of The Nazi's and all that they stood for.

Just consider had they won? The plans for Britain are there for all to see. We would have been a slave Nation working for the Glory of the Fatherland.

It was intended that the male population would be worked to death for the Fatherland, and God knows what would have happened to our Wives and daughters. Knowing the reputation of the SS and their cohorts. God help them.

So despite my understanding of how you feel. I can never forget what you Germans had in store for us. On the other hand, despite us winning we never tried to use the same tactics on our enemy, After the war, when my country was broke and hungry, we still sent food to the beaten enemy to stop them starving.

The Germans murdered my mates in cold blood in Normandy, after they were taken prisoner, they robbed us of our youth, and I left a long trail of friends that fell in battle all the way from Sword Beach to Bremen.

Am I to turn my back on my friends that gave their lives for all that we hold dear. Freedom, What then happens to the memory of those men?
I really do understand how the mother feels. But let me ask anyone here this:
Would you feel friendly to those responsible for the death of millions and closer to home, those that died, and those permanently maimed in your own family, for that precious commodity. Freedom. Tell me German Mother. for I understand your views.
Sapper

[Kitty]

Sapper, may i answer you?
I am female, and 26. I was born and raised in Cheshire, in an ancient market town (it's still a dump...)
I vividly recall sitting in a history class when i was 13. The teacher, whose grandfather was well over 100 and had fought in both world wars, explained very calmly what would have happened to us if we were alive in occupied Europe at that age. The boys were horrified to learn they would have been slaves, worked to death and treated worse than animals. However, their shouts were soon silenced when she went on to the girls. We were told that at 13, we would have been used as breeding mares for the Fatherland. Every night a different soldier of the 'Pure Race' would have used us to produce blonde haired, blue eyed children for germany. That has left a lasting impression on me. Particularly as she turned to me, a blue eyed, dark blond girl, and addressed this comment to me.
Yesterday i was at St Lawrences church in Biddulph, where i relocated my uncles grave. he had half his face shot off whilst parachuting in the 2nd wave at Arnhem. The german's knew they were coming and took action to prevent the resupply of the troops they were currently fighting on the ground. Can you blame them for that? If we had been fighting a rear guard action, i beleive we would have shot those paratroopers out of the sky as well. This was barbaric, but so is war. But the German's still repatriated him back to Allied lines so he could go home to die. It gave Uncle Hedley a chance to see his one month old daughter before he died.
As to Tyrulf, i have not seen any of this posts, and i hope i do not until he has grown up. If i ever have the misfortune to come across anything like i have seen suggested, i will personally come down on him like a ton of bricks. And to his mother: please, take your son to the synagogue. To the war graves. Anywhere, and beat some intelligence into his thick skull.
I do not consider all germans to be Nazis, and neither do i consider all Europeans to be slave traders from the 18th century. We have moved on, and that is an end to it. If someone accused a german of beind a Nazi without good solid and irrefutable proof, i will be the first to protect the german. But if they are a Nazi, who glories in the past atrocities, then i will also be the first to take up arms against them. That is me. i have Japanese, Greek and not-sure-where-he's-from friends. I live in a Global Village and i revel learning new things from other cultures. (except hikers. they should all be shot on sight.) And i beleive many of my friends are the same. Unfortunately, the FE students are a load of inbred pillocks, but we ignore them...
And Tyrulf? I am 5'4". Blonde, blue eyed and pale skinned. Am i the perfect specimen of humanity? Looks are deceiving Tyrulf. If you go back 800 years I have Saracen blood in me. Do not talk about something of which you know nothing about.
And Sapper? I hope you don't take offence at anything i may have said in my post. I am merely laying down my own opinion. I just hope the majority are willing to learn, unlike Tyrulf. If Tyrulf is an prime example of the majority of my generation, then i am afraid WW3 is on it's way.
As a WW1 soldier said "We have fought the fathers, now we must fight the sons."

PS. I believe the gold cross on the rebuilt Dresden cathedral was made by a goldsmith whose father had been bomber crew on the Dresden raid. I look at the rebuild as a sign that things have changed. Maybe a little hope for the future?

[Gotthard Heinrici]

Excellent post Mosquito and well said.


If I may be allowed to throw in a story here……………………

Being Irish and with my country not being directly involved in WWII I cant comprehend what it must have been like to have had relatives and friends perish on the fields of Battle. I have however met a number of Germans and Dutch who had relatives were involved in one way or another so I can at least find out from them.

My brother lived in Munich for a while and his boss was a man who was born in Jan 1945. Dieter’s father fought on the Eastern Front in a Wehrmacht line unit and was caught up in the battles in Silesia. He was a Hauptmann and died on the last day of the siege of Breslau. When I talked to Dieter he was obviously upset over the fact that he never knew his Father and also that he and his Mother had to flee from the East to escape the Russians. Whenever he was asked about his views on the war he always insists “We got what we deserved. We reaped what we sowed” Every year Dieter and 4 of his friends make a trip east to some of the cities and lay wreaths at memorials to the war dead. I should say Soviet war dead. When I spoke to him and asked him why he replied “ I consider it an act of contrition for what my country did 60 years ago. Dieter has a family and he takes his sons with him too”. He is a proud German and loves his country very much but he will not try to justify anything that the Nazi Regime did during the war. He holds no bitterness towards any of the victorious nations. Tyrulf, follow the example of Dieter. Be proud of your country and your grandpa. But accept that great wrongs and atrocities were committed on behalf of the German Nation during that time.

[Kiwiwriter]

I also have a message for Tyrulf's mother...he needs to learn a little bit about being respectful to adults, especially older ones, and civil discourse.

And I do sympathize with your position. Germany has the problem of trying to build a new record to replace a horrible old one. I don't think anyone here regards modern Germany in the same way they regard the Third Reich, and we are very aware that "the sins of the fathers should not be visited upon the sons." Or those of the mothers and grandmothers.

We know that the modern Germany has taken massive steps to confront and break away from its past. We also know that German soldiers are helping to keep the peace in the former Yugoslavia and fighting terrorism in Afghanistan, and taken stern measures against neo-Nazis an their ilk.

Nor does anyone here snicker over the tragic fates of millions of Germans who were killed and wounded in World War II. Many of Hitler's victims were Germans, including Rommel himself. We are very aware that a great many Germans were prisoners in their own country, literally and figuratively.

The only problems we've had with your son is are his poor knowledge of a subject he is claiming expertise upon (which is completely uncalled for) and his angry tone (which is completely unnecessary). He has the passion of youth, which is fine, but he has to learn to temper and refine it.

I'm sure that he'll learn...after all, you have already done an outstanding job of teaching him to understand, learn, and respect his own history...which is the biggest part of the struggle.

Cheers!

[Max (UK)]

Originally Posted by Gotthard Heinrici

I acknowledge that he has a voice and is entitled to speak it, just as Sapper is.

Yeah, no-one is saying they're not entitled to air their views

[Gage]

We all know that not all German Soldiers were psychopaths. We all know how the war started. It's sad to say that in Britain today there still is mindless idiots who think that Germans are Nazis.
In the last months of the war the German people wanted to protect their Country and their people.

[sapper]

Of course they wanted to protect their country and their people. After destroying everyone elses.

I wonder what you would have to say, if you were a prisoner of the Gestapo. and had your finger nails pulled out with some pliers? Or a hundred and one other tortures too ghastly too mention here.

Or perhaps you would have liked to join the Das Reich SS panzer Div, in their murder of 99 innocent men, by hanging them from the lamp posts all through the town streets, on their way up to Normandy, from the Limoge area.

Now you were saying?
Sapper

[Tyrulf]

Originally Posted by mosquito617

Sapper, may i answer you?
I am female, and 26. I was born and raised in Cheshire, in an ancient market town (it's still a dump...)
I vividly recall sitting in a history class when i was 13. The teacher, whose grandfather was well over 100 and had fought in both world wars, explained very calmly what would have happened to us if we were alive in occupied Europe at that age. The boys were horrified to learn they would have been slaves, worked to death and treated worse than animals. However, their shouts were soon silenced when she went on to the girls. We were told that at 13, we would have been used as breeding mares for the Fatherland. Every night a different soldier of the 'Pure Race' would have used us to produce blonde haired, blue eyed children for germany. That has left a lasting impression on me. Particularly as she turned to me, a blue eyed, dark blond girl, and addressed this comment to me.
Yesterday i was at St Lawrences church in Biddulph, where i relocated my uncles grave. he had half his face shot off whilst parachuting in the 2nd wave at Arnhem. The german's knew they were coming and took action to prevent the resupply of the troops they were currently fighting on the ground. Can you blame them for that? If we had been fighting a rear guard action, i beleive we would have shot those paratroopers out of the sky as well. This was barbaric, but so is war. But the German's still repatriated him back to Allied lines so he could go home to die. It gave Uncle Hedley a chance to see his one month old daughter before he died.
As to Tyrulf, i have not seen any of this posts, and i hope i do not until he has grown up. If i ever have the misfortune to come across anything like i have seen suggested, i will personally come down on him like a ton of bricks. And to his mother: please, take your son to the synagogue. To the war graves. Anywhere, and beat some intelligence into his thick skull.
I do not consider all germans to be Nazis, and neither do i consider all Europeans to be slave traders from the 18th century. We have moved on, and that is an end to it. If someone accused a german of beind a Nazi without good solid and irrefutable proof, i will be the first to protect the german. But if they are a Nazi, who glories in the past atrocities, then i will also be the first to take up arms against them. That is me. i have Japanese, Greek and not-sure-where-he's-from friends. I live in a Global Village and i revel learning new things from other cultures. (except hikers. they should all be shot on sight.) And i beleive many of my friends are the same. Unfortunately, the FE students are a load of inbred pillocks, but we ignore them...
And Tyrulf? I am 5'4". Blonde, blue eyed and pale skinned. Am i the perfect specimen of humanity? Looks are deceiving Tyrulf. If you go back 800 years I have Saracen blood in me. Do not talk about something of which you know nothing about.
And Sapper? I hope you don't take offence at anything i may have said in my post. I am merely laying down my own opinion. I just hope the majority are willing to learn, unlike Tyrulf. If Tyrulf is an prime example of the majority of my generation, then i am afraid WW3 is on it's way.
As a WW1 soldier said "We have fought the fathers, now we must fight the sons."

PS. I believe the gold cross on the rebuilt Dresden cathedral was made by a goldsmith whose father had been bomber crew on the Dresden raid. I look at the rebuild as a sign that things have changed. Maybe a little hope for the future?

You have not seen any posts of me but condemn me ? strange

why should I visit a synagoge ?

I am getting raw dealed .
You treated me like being a antisemitism or a nazi .
In truth I love the jewish religion and culture and have defend it more than one time when simple(young) people,mates made joke about the jewish religion or antesemitism notes.

And if you think I made racial statements.

As I read how sapper called germans lurid " huns" who do not belong to the civilised world I wanted to remember of the relationship of the british and the german nations / ethnicies and that they are actually like brothers and how senseless it is to kill each other . The people of the whole world are actually brothers and sisters





by the way...please keep the brick on the ground

[von Poop]

Originally Posted by mosquito617

As to Tyrulf, i have not seen any of this posts,

Hooray! I'm agreeing with Tyrulf on something, (I knew it had to happen) thought myself it was a teeny bit rich to call the man a nazi without checking out his posts first, s'not hard to check a few from his profile... Shall we all lay off the poor sod now and let him find his feet without being hunted by us??? surely nuff said now eh???

[Tyrulf]

and I by far do not challenge the atrocities done by germans like the holocaust , torturement of " lower" races . They are the felonies who may never being forgotten.
Like you think I do ;nor ??

but what I want to say is that crime is crime . Of course many germans did much more crimes than they suffered - but this does not lower or destroy the atrocities done to peoples living in germany.

Crime is crime - always done to innocent people . Why should their nationality lower or strengthen the atrocity doen to them ? atrocity is atrocity so you understand what I want to say ?
if you attack me because of this you might not have fully understood what I tried to explain.