Should Old Veterans Forgive Their Former Enemies? - Page 7

jamesicus · 16-12-2005, 10:01 PM

Quote:

(lionboxer @ Dec 16 2005, 07:53 PM) [post=43237]Have I missed something? What's happened to Sapper's postings?
Lionboxer
[/b]

I believe he removed them himself .....

Quote:

(sapper @ Dec 16 2005, 09:40 AM) [post=43214]removed there is no meeting of minds with different generations.
[/b]

Vabadusjaiseseisvus · 18-12-2005, 01:24 PM

Question! Should Old Veterans Forgive Their Former Enemies?

Answer is no!

Because one of them are still proud of the crimes that they have done!

Even nowdays they have their parades!

They still lie! They still belive that they mission was the right one! There is no compassions for those who suffer because of their actions.

They even lie to their kids!
Then there will be a new generation who will act the same way because they belive in their mission too!

And the good goverment support it/them! It also do what ever it takes to purge their history/mission!

No names! I hope MRmoderator wont close/remove it!
Who want understand who dont!
That is his mission!

Other side dont behave that way!

They also felt/feel sorry and have or at least try to appologise!

Roxy · 18-12-2005, 10:37 PM

It appears that there are still some very bitter people out there. For my twoppence, I think that the world is a better place because some people did learn to forgive. However, lest we forget!

Roxy

Edited because the original post reads as a bit patronising, and that was not intended.

I am of the opinion that it is up to the conscience of the individual veteran to determine whether or not he can forgive. I am not, in any way, entitled to influence that opinion. It does appear to me that some of those members contributing to this thread are still bitter: they obviously feel entitled to feel that way. Some people are able to forgive, others are not. That's life. However, I am still of the opinion that the world is a better place because some people have learned to forgive.

Roxy

Vabadusjaiseseisvus · 28-12-2005, 05:58 PM

Quote:

(Roxy @ Dec 18 2005, 08:37 PM) [post=43327]It appears that there are still some very bitter people ....
Roxy
[/b]

There isn´t bitter people!

But there is people who still suffer because of unjustice!

That is the truth!

Harry Ree · 29-12-2005, 01:42 AM

As the French say: Oradour sur Glane: Souviens-Toi. Remember

Oradour, a martyred village in the Limousin,put to the torch and its inhabitants butchered for no reason than an excess of power based on ideology.

In Russia there were over 600 such villages put to the torch and its civilians murdered by the German invaders under the guise of being partisans or any other excuse that could be presented. When brought to task,the defence was always "higher orders".It would be interesting to hear Russian personal views of that era.

The atrocities in Russia,the ill treatment of Russian POWs came about because of the Nazi regime's ideology. The SS and the extermination squads were well steeped in the ideology and were willing participants. However it has to be said that the Wehrmacht more often than not, were not the innocent bystanders that it is increasingly supposed.

The North African campaign did not reveal atrocities on either side.The SS were not involved in this theatre of war and so could not add their "particular battlefield zeal". Hence the accepted meetings of Africa Korps and 8th Army Veterans.I have not heard of SS veterans being accepted by other veterans other than their own at their own reunions which were declared to be illegal by the post war German Government but still took place.

Glider · 29-12-2005, 02:47 AM

I agree with this statement from Roxy

I am of the opinion that it is up to the conscience of the individual veteran to determine whether or not he can forgive. I am not, in any way, entitled to influence that opinion. It does appear to me that some of those members contributing to this thread are still bitter: they obviously feel entitled to feel that way. Some people are able to forgive, others are not. That's life. However, I am still of the opinion that the world is a better place because some people have learned to forgive.

I can offer one example of how peoples experience effects their views. A family friend was a merchant seaman in WW2 and sunk off the coast of France. He and the others made it to shore which at the time was Vichy controlled where he was picked up and put in a POW camp. Here the treatment handed out was appalling with gratuitous violence and deliberate cruelty. It should be remembered that some of the seamen in the camp were in their 60's. When the Germans took over Vichy Territory they also took over the running of the camp, things improved dramatically and the older men repatriated under condition they didn't sail again. You ask him who the enemy was at a personal level, and you can guess the reply.

Obviously this was a minority case, but it does reveal why it has to be to the individual to decide to forgive.

Harry Ree · 29-12-2005, 11:19 AM

I can offer one example of how peoples experience effects their views. A family friend was a merchant seaman in WW2 and sunk off the coast of France. He and the others made it to shore which at the time was Vichy controlled where he was picked up and put in a POW camp. Here the treatment handed out was appalling with gratuitous violence and deliberate cruelty. It should be remembered that some of the seamen in the camp were in their 60's. When the Germans took over Vichy Territory they also took over the running of the camp, things improved dramatically and the older men repatriated under condition they didn't sail again. You ask him who the enemy was at a personal level, and you can guess the reply.

[quote]

This incident contrasts in the extreme to Allied combatants captured on mainland Europe on special operations and in uniform.These POWs were murdered under Hitler's Secret Directive and again the perpetrators, when brought to justice always pleaded "higher orders".

Regarding the capture of a merchant seaman by the Vichy authorities,the Vichy regime was no better than the Nazi regime in that it supported the Nazi ideology and to the end wished for a German victory over the "Anglo Saxons".The merchant seamen in the hands of their German captors were no different to those German civilians captured by the Allies.All should have been treated as civilian internees.

However, I am not surprised at Vichy's treatment of Allied nationals whilst in captivity.One of the worse experiences an escaped Allied POW could have, was to fall into the hands of Vichy on the fall of France when Vichy was allowed to have some control in the south which what became known as Vichy France.The regime was a willing accomplice to the occupation of France by Germany and fully co-oporated with the Germans in responding to the call for forced labour for the German war economy.Through their terror police,the Milice,Vichy was able to fully represent the invader in eliminating any form of resistance to the occupation.Further,Vichy was an extension to the Nazi policy regarding the "Jewish Question" and was proactive in the persecution of their own and foreign Jewish nationals within France.This act of Vichy is still remembered in France.

Ask any escaped POW or civilian internee who passed through the Spanish internment camp at Miranda,Spain and I am sure that their treatment reflected Franco's close association with Hitler,unfortunately not close enough to end Franco's stranglehood on Spain when Germany was finally defeated.

Glider · 29-12-2005, 05:44 PM

Harry
No one is condoning what the Germans did against Jews, Other minorities, Special forces captured in uniform or the vast number of other examples of German behaviour.

The question is Should old Veterans forgive their former Enemies?

My belief and that of others, is that it is up to the Veteran and it is the experience of the Veteran that should decide the reply. It isn't up to those of us who were not there to decide for them.

I give another example. My father was an RSM in the Medical corps, when the concentration camps were found he was one of the people sent to ease the situation. They needed more men and went to the nearest hospital to find experienced nurses. Five German nurses came reluctantly knowing that something bad had happened in the camp but not believing what they had been told. When they arrived they were truly shocked and insisted on working in the most dangerously infected parts of the camp. Over the next few week they all caught infections and died. These girls were replaced by other german nurses who wanted to work in the same area, when two of them died they were also replaced by their friends.

Do you forgive the Germans or not. It isn't a black or white situation, it has to be up to the person involved, not us sitting at our PC's.

Vabadusjaiseseisvus · 29-12-2005, 07:39 PM

[quote name='Harry Ree' date='Dec 28 2005, 11:42 PM' post='21026']
As the French say: Oradour sur Glane: Souviens-Toi. Remember

I know abaut it! Shame on them! Those Waffen SS solders who did it are/were busters!

That is something that we never forgive!

Vabadusjaiseseisvus · 29-12-2005, 08:02 PM

[quote name='Harry Ree' date='Dec 28 2005, 11:42 PM' post='21026']
As the French say: Oradour sur Glane: Souviens-Toi. Remember

In Russia there were over 600 such villages put to the torch and its civilians murdered by the German invaders under the guise of being partisans or any other excuse that could be presented. When brought to task,the defence was always "higher orders".It would be interesting to hear Russian personal views of that era.

Question!
Do You know how much villages were burned by they own Good red army and red solders?
And it happened before Wermaht and Grenaders came!

If we talk about civilians: before 1917 in Russi9a were killed ower 6000 human. After 1917! First year
under Soviets rule bring death for 90 000 human! Nice, or what do You think!

You also should know that for slavians the German solder was rescuer! They were happy that those red comissars dissapeared!

If the front come back in 1943 people retreat with Wermaht and Waffen in west. Nobody didnt want to met again with the red comissars!

That is the views for You!

18-12-2005, 10:37 PM	#63 (permalink)
Roxy Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Elgin, Moray Posts: 65	It appears that there are still some very bitter people out there. For my twoppence, I think that the world is a better place because some people did learn to forgive. However, lest we forget! Roxy Edited because the original post reads as a bit patronising, and that was not intended. I am of the opinion that it is up to the conscience of the individual veteran to determine whether or not he can forgive. I am not, in any way, entitled to influence that opinion. It does appear to me that some of those members contributing to this thread are still bitter: they obviously feel entitled to feel that way. Some people are able to forgive, others are not. That's life. However, I am still of the opinion that the world is a better place because some people have learned to forgive. Roxy __________________ Remembering my good mates Flt Lt Al Squires and CXX/3 who died in Afghanistan on 2 Sep 06. Also remembering my ggf Pte Thomas Roberts who fought for his country in The Great War and died on 25 Sep 15 at Loos. And my gf Pte Thomas Roxburgh who fought for his country in the Second World War and survived.

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18-12-2005, 01:24 PM	#62 (permalink)
Vabadusjaiseseisvus Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 22	Question! Should Old Veterans Forgive Their Former Enemies? Answer is no! Because one of them are still proud of the crimes that they have done! Even nowdays they have their parades! They still lie! They still belive that they mission was the right one! There is no compassions for those who suffer because of their actions. They even lie to their kids! Then there will be a new generation who will act the same way because they belive in their mission too! And the good goverment support it/them! It also do what ever it takes to purge their history/mission! No names! I hope MRmoderator wont close/remove it! Who want understand who dont! That is his mission! Other side dont behave that way! They also felt/feel sorry and have or at least try to appologise!

29-12-2005, 01:42 AM	#65 (permalink)
Harry Ree Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 634	As the French say: Oradour sur Glane: Souviens-Toi. Remember Oradour, a martyred village in the Limousin,put to the torch and its inhabitants butchered for no reason than an excess of power based on ideology. In Russia there were over 600 such villages put to the torch and its civilians murdered by the German invaders under the guise of being partisans or any other excuse that could be presented. When brought to task,the defence was always "higher orders".It would be interesting to hear Russian personal views of that era. The atrocities in Russia,the ill treatment of Russian POWs came about because of the Nazi regime's ideology. The SS and the extermination squads were well steeped in the ideology and were willing participants. However it has to be said that the Wehrmacht more often than not, were not the innocent bystanders that it is increasingly supposed. The North African campaign did not reveal atrocities on either side.The SS were not involved in this theatre of war and so could not add their "particular battlefield zeal". Hence the accepted meetings of Africa Korps and 8th Army Veterans.I have not heard of SS veterans being accepted by other veterans other than their own at their own reunions which were declared to be illegal by the post war German Government but still took place.

29-12-2005, 02:47 AM	#66 (permalink)
Glider Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 207	I agree with this statement from Roxy I am of the opinion that it is up to the conscience of the individual veteran to determine whether or not he can forgive. I am not, in any way, entitled to influence that opinion. It does appear to me that some of those members contributing to this thread are still bitter: they obviously feel entitled to feel that way. Some people are able to forgive, others are not. That's life. However, I am still of the opinion that the world is a better place because some people have learned to forgive. I can offer one example of how peoples experience effects their views. A family friend was a merchant seaman in WW2 and sunk off the coast of France. He and the others made it to shore which at the time was Vichy controlled where he was picked up and put in a POW camp. Here the treatment handed out was appalling with gratuitous violence and deliberate cruelty. It should be remembered that some of the seamen in the camp were in their 60's. When the Germans took over Vichy Territory they also took over the running of the camp, things improved dramatically and the older men repatriated under condition they didn't sail again. You ask him who the enemy was at a personal level, and you can guess the reply. Obviously this was a minority case, but it does reveal why it has to be to the individual to decide to forgive.

29-12-2005, 11:19 AM	#67 (permalink)
Harry Ree Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 634	I can offer one example of how peoples experience effects their views. A family friend was a merchant seaman in WW2 and sunk off the coast of France. He and the others made it to shore which at the time was Vichy controlled where he was picked up and put in a POW camp. Here the treatment handed out was appalling with gratuitous violence and deliberate cruelty. It should be remembered that some of the seamen in the camp were in their 60's. When the Germans took over Vichy Territory they also took over the running of the camp, things improved dramatically and the older men repatriated under condition they didn't sail again. You ask him who the enemy was at a personal level, and you can guess the reply. [quote] This incident contrasts in the extreme to Allied combatants captured on mainland Europe on special operations and in uniform.These POWs were murdered under Hitler's Secret Directive and again the perpetrators, when brought to justice always pleaded "higher orders". Regarding the capture of a merchant seaman by the Vichy authorities,the Vichy regime was no better than the Nazi regime in that it supported the Nazi ideology and to the end wished for a German victory over the "Anglo Saxons".The merchant seamen in the hands of their German captors were no different to those German civilians captured by the Allies.All should have been treated as civilian internees. However, I am not surprised at Vichy's treatment of Allied nationals whilst in captivity.One of the worse experiences an escaped Allied POW could have, was to fall into the hands of Vichy on the fall of France when Vichy was allowed to have some control in the south which what became known as Vichy France.The regime was a willing accomplice to the occupation of France by Germany and fully co-oporated with the Germans in responding to the call for forced labour for the German war economy.Through their terror police,the Milice,Vichy was able to fully represent the invader in eliminating any form of resistance to the occupation.Further,Vichy was an extension to the Nazi policy regarding the "Jewish Question" and was proactive in the persecution of their own and foreign Jewish nationals within France.This act of Vichy is still remembered in France. Ask any escaped POW or civilian internee who passed through the Spanish internment camp at Miranda,Spain and I am sure that their treatment reflected Franco's close association with Hitler,unfortunately not close enough to end Franco's stranglehood on Spain when Germany was finally defeated.

29-12-2005, 05:44 PM	#68 (permalink)
Glider Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 207	Harry No one is condoning what the Germans did against Jews, Other minorities, Special forces captured in uniform or the vast number of other examples of German behaviour. The question is Should old Veterans forgive their former Enemies? My belief and that of others, is that it is up to the Veteran and it is the experience of the Veteran that should decide the reply. It isn't up to those of us who were not there to decide for them. I give another example. My father was an RSM in the Medical corps, when the concentration camps were found he was one of the people sent to ease the situation. They needed more men and went to the nearest hospital to find experienced nurses. Five German nurses came reluctantly knowing that something bad had happened in the camp but not believing what they had been told. When they arrived they were truly shocked and insisted on working in the most dangerously infected parts of the camp. Over the next few week they all caught infections and died. These girls were replaced by other german nurses who wanted to work in the same area, when two of them died they were also replaced by their friends. Do you forgive the Germans or not. It isn't a black or white situation, it has to be up to the person involved, not us sitting at our PC's.

29-12-2005, 07:39 PM	#69 (permalink)
Vabadusjaiseseisvus Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 22	[quote name='Harry Ree' date='Dec 28 2005, 11:42 PM' post='21026'] As the French say: Oradour sur Glane: Souviens-Toi. Remember I know abaut it! Shame on them! Those Waffen SS solders who did it are/were busters! That is something that we never forgive!

29-12-2005, 08:02 PM	#70 (permalink)
Vabadusjaiseseisvus Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 22	[quote name='Harry Ree' date='Dec 28 2005, 11:42 PM' post='21026'] As the French say: Oradour sur Glane: Souviens-Toi. Remember In Russia there were over 600 such villages put to the torch and its civilians murdered by the German invaders under the guise of being partisans or any other excuse that could be presented. When brought to task,the defence was always "higher orders".It would be interesting to hear Russian personal views of that era. Question! Do You know how much villages were burned by they own Good red army and red solders? And it happened before Wermaht and Grenaders came! If we talk about civilians: before 1917 in Russi9a were killed ower 6000 human. After 1917! First year under Soviets rule bring death for 90 000 human! Nice, or what do You think! You also should know that for slavians the German solder was rescuer! They were happy that those red comissars dissapeared! If the front come back in 1943 people retreat with Wermaht and Waffen in west. Nobody didnt want to met again with the red comissars! That is the views for You!

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