What If Hitler Embraced The German (jewish) Population?

[Joe Perkowski]

Would the outcome of the war be the same? I know a lot of German-Jewish scientists left Germany in the 30s because of Hitler. Would we (Allies) would have won if Hitler embraced Germany's Jewish scientists? Considering that they could have made the atom bomb before we did.

[No.9]

Even if the Jewish scientists who worked on the project in America had remained in Germany, you would have to suppose they would be willing to continue their work to produce a weapon for offensive aggression? Also, many of Germany's scientists were Scandinavian and quite a few came and/or escaped to Britain during the nazis regime. Oppenheimer was Jewish, but he was American and only studied for a while in Germany in the 1920's.

Two things are undoubtable however, IMHO, 1. that Hitler would have used the bomb if he had it, and 2. the Germans were not that advanced and I'm not sure how much of a 'passion' Hitler seriously had to develop this theoretical weapon? Certainly the hardware that was brought to Germany after successful espionage in Norway, was found abandoned and unassembled after the war in southern Germany.

In respect of German Jewish citizens, they would of course have been beneficial to the National effort if they had been allowed to. One image of the lunacy is surely German citizens being rounded-up with men producing their service records and decorations from W.W.I????

If Hitler had developed the Atom Bomb before going to war, it would have been a very different conflict. If Hitler made no issue with Jews and they were otherwise part of their war effort, Germany would still have lost.

No.9

[Kiwiwriter]

(Joe Perkowski @ Jan 17 2006, 04:46 PM) [post=44495]Would the outcome of the war be the same? I know a lot of German-Jewish scientists left Germany in the 30s because of Hitler. Would we (Allies) would have won if Hitler embraced Germany's Jewish scientists? Considering that they could have made the atom bomb before we did.
[/b]

Len Deighton believed that Hitler's anti-Semitic policies cost him the atomic bomb and the war, and I have to agree. However, the anti-Semitic policies were also at the fundamental core of Nazism, so without anti-Semitism, the Nazi operation would be a different one...the anti-Semitism made Hitler invade his neighbors, particularly the Soviet Union. Late in the war, when the Wehrmacht needed trains to move supplies, he overrode the commanders and assigned the trains to Eichmann's long-delayed task of emptying Hungary's cities of Jews.

I'm mostly of the "intentionalist" view of the Holocaust, which argues that Hitler intended to kill every Jew in Europe. The "Functionalist" view is that killing Jews was part of Hitler's programs, not the overriding concern. There is validity to both views, and I think that both were going on at the same time.

But I cannot see Hitler -- despite him granting "honorary Aryan" status to a number of German Jews and "Mischlinge" -- supporting Jewish atomic bomb scientists. He did not believe the bomb would work. He thought it would incinerate the entire atmosphere, which was a concern held by Enrico Fermi, as well.

Nor was Hitler a fan of science in particular. He had little interest in the V-weapons until, after repeated failed launches, Braun and Dornberger showed him a film of a test launch that worked. Hitler then saw the terror and propaganda purposes of such a weapon. Possibly if the atomic scientists could do a similar demonstration for Hitler, he would have supported the bomb.

[MikB]

That wouldn't have been possible. It was one of the planks of Nazi popular support. Their whole character would've had to be different.

The Nazi policy of repression of 'inferior' races was the main reason their enemies fought them with such commitment. If they hadn't been as bad as they were, they mayn't have had the gall to invade Poland in the first place.

You might just as well consider whether tigers would've done better if they didn't bite... [img]images/smilies/default/biggrin.gif[/img]

Regards,
MikB

[lancesergeant]

But I cannot see Hitler -- despite him granting "honorary Aryan" status to a number of German Jews and "Mischlinge" -- supporting Jewish atomic bomb scientists. He did not believe the bomb would work. He thought it would incinerate the entire atmosphere, which was a concern held by Enrico Fermi, as well.


It's ironic that Hitler's personal doctor/ surgeon was Jewish, but he was never removed because Hitler valued him so highly!

[Rabbieburns]

2 things

(1) The Jewish scientists would still of had to have worked in the chaotic and disorganised R & D conditions prevalent in Nazi Germany therefore reducing their chances of success considerably.

(2) After a couple of British instigated attacks on the Norweign Norsk- Hydro plant, which manufactured the only Nazi source of heavy water necessary to research/build a bomb, the Nazi decided it was an unsafe location and tried to ship all of the equipment back to Germany. A Norweign saboteur, under British orders, blew up the ferry carrying the equipment and the heavy water on its way back to Germany thereby ending any hope that the Nazis had of making an atomic bomb.

Jewish scientists would in all likelyhood have made no difference to Nazi atomic research in the long run.

No heavy water = no atomic bomb.

[von Poop]

Nonetheless, a large Proportion of the key figures on the Manhattan project were emigre Jews from Germany and it's occupied territories, Teller, Frisch, Bloch et. al. Who could say what Brains like that could come up with?
I can't deny the integral nature of Nazism and anti-semitism and its relationship to the war but this is one of those 'what if?' questions and Hitler certainly removed a crucial science knowledge base that could, conceivably, have handed him a weapon he wouldnt have hesitated to use. I can easily imagine huge swathes of Eastern Europe still being Damaged wastelands now.

[Tyrulf]

germany had the best scientists until the nazi regime ..like Einstein , Braun etc

especially in chemistry and physics so its unsure what would have happened

[Panzerfaust]

Originally Posted by Joe Perkowski

Would the outcome of the war be the same? I know a lot of German-Jewish scientists left Germany in the 30s because of Hitler. Would we (Allies) would have won if Hitler embraced Germany's Jewish scientists? Considering that they could have made the atom bomb before we did.

A German scientist (I forget his name) did figure out how to make an atomic bomb, but he later admitted after the war that he did not want Hitler to have an atomic bomb, so he lied to Hitler and said that Germany did not have enough knowledge to make an atomic bomb. He is considered a Hero by many.

[Gibbo]

Originally Posted by Panzerfaust

A German scientist (I forget his name) did figure out how to make an atomic bomb, but he later admitted after the war that he did not want Hitler to have an atomic bomb, so he lied to Hitler and said that Germany did not have enough knowledge to make an atomic bomb. He is considered a Hero by many.

Werner Heisenberg, who developed the uncertainty principle & won the 1932 Nobel Prize for Physics, headed the unsuccessful German atomic bomb programme. He had earlier been criticised by Nazis for defending Einstein. There are two versions of why he failed to develop the atom bomb; either he obstructed the programme or else he was on the wrong lines. He & other German scientists were held by the British after the war & their private conversations were taped. If the transcript quoted in note 4 on the link below is accurate, then both stories may be true.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/GERheisenberg.htm

A friend of mine who has a science degree says that Heisenberg is still very highly regarded in the scientific world.

Reverting to the original question, anti-Semitism was so key to Hitler that I don't think that you can have a scenario where he embraces the German Jewish population. What might be more plausible is if he didn't rise to power but a more traditional right wing nationalist leader did. Such a leader might have followed a similar foreign policy to Hitler but without the anti-Semitism