VC winner branded 'war criminal' - wore a German paratrooper's smock to dupe snipers

Jim Clay · 10-04-2006, 01:13 PM

This morning's online Telegraph contains the following item about NZ VC winner Sgt A C Hulme - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...C-new_10042006

The authors of a new book suggest that Sgt Hulme's ruse of donning a German para's smock to dupe German snipers was "an act of perfidy under international law", and another NZ academic suggests that Sgt Hulme's actions (killing enemy soldiers while wearing their uniform) were "prima facie a war crime".

Do Forum members believe that Sgt Hulme's disguise was an acceptable action in war? Or is it unarguably against the rules of war?

Do they agree the NZ Govt should now apologise for Sgt Hulme's actions?

Either way, do they agree with his daughter's statement that accusing him of war crimes was "a terrible thing to bring up".

Jim

Owen · 10-04-2006, 02:38 PM

What utter ******, haven't people got better things to do?
A Soldier's job in war is to kill the enemy.
If this is the case can the German Government apologise to my family for them shooting my Great-Uncle in 1918 after he was wounded?
No I don't want one and don't expect one.
If the NZ Government do apologise I shall be amazed and digusted.
Thanks for raising this point Jim I think this is going to create quite a thread.

10-04-2006, 03:02 PM

What absolute tripe (i would normally use bad language here, but I'm on remand). So he wore a german smock and whacked a few enemy in return without getting his own brains blown out. War ain't nice, and he played by the rules of the battlefield. Good forhim.
I know if i was in the midst of a battle i'd rather have someone like him watching my back than some prissy little corporal with the Genevea conventions in his hand.
And if apologies are being given out, can germany pelase apologise for shooting half of my uncle's face off at Arnhem before he had even hit the ground?
Mind you, look what our government does to our squaddies who give looters the smacking they deserve in Iraq. PC has gone mad.
I shall now go away and sit in a darkened room until i calm down again.
Kitty

Owen · 10-04-2006, 03:04 PM

Here is Sgt Hulme
,http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-...vc-winners.htm

Are we to view him as a War Criminal?

NO.

morse1001 · 10-04-2006, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Clay

This morning's online Telegraph contains the following item about NZ VC winner Sgt A C Hulme - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...C-new_10042006

The authors of a new book suggest that Sgt Hulme's ruse of donning a German para's smock to dupe German snipers was "an act of perfidy under international law", and another NZ academic suggests that Sgt Hulme's actions (killing enemy soldiers while wearing their uniform) were "prima facie a war crime".

Do Forum members believe that Sgt Hulme's disguise was an acceptable action in war? Or is it unarguably against the rules of war?

Do they agree the NZ Govt should now apologise for Sgt Hulme's actions?

Either way, do they agree with his daughter's statement that accusing him of war crimes was "a terrible thing to bring up".

Jim

neither he nor the NZ govt have anything to apologise about. he was a man under fire and reacted in the best way he could think of in the situation.

if you look at photos of men taken in north africa, then you will see men on both sides wearing parts of each others uniforms. Does his make them War crimminals?

Also, what about the forces that used each others captured equipment?

plant-pilot · 10-04-2006, 06:08 PM

By the very letter of the law what he did can be called 'deception' which is against the Geneva conventions, in reality what he probably though he was doing was using a ruse, which is not against the conventions. Faced with a serious threat of snipers he chose on the spot to go against them alone, out numbered with only a little of a ruse to even up the chances. A very brave thing to do. If it wasn't then he wouldn't have got the VC.

It's very easy for academics to sit safe at their desks 60 years on and miles from any battlefield, and sift through history in order to find some contention with which to make their names by making sensation where there is none. They shouldn't dirty the name of a brave man who is no longer here to defend himself. They should leave that to the tabloid press.

Let's not forget a few things. If he had been caught he would have been shot on the spot. In the some parts of the war the Germans used whole units of english speaking soldiers dressed as american MPs to decieve and confuse. It would have been simpler, and much more probable today for an air strike to be called in and the entire area suspected of hiding snipers to be laid flat, with rank disregard for the enemy, property or the environment, and likely not to leave any enemy remains to bury. Perfectly legal, but any more or less a 'crime'?

Gage · 10-04-2006, 06:39 PM

Total war is what it means - TOTAL WAR.

Gnomey · 10-04-2006, 06:59 PM

Agreed Gage. He was being resourceful, why should that be punished. It was a kill or be killed world and he was maximising his chances of surviving, so it was being sneaky, but that is how wars are won, by those who have surprise and catch the enemy unawares which is what he was doing. No he should not and the NZ government shouldn't have to apologise.

51highland · 10-04-2006, 07:39 PM

Half the British army would be classed as war criminals if this is the case. In 1944 after several unpleasant actions, e.g blowing up innocent women and children, or finding comrades with their hands bound with barbed wire and their throats cut, any and all Germans wearing the black ss uniform were never given the opportunity to surrender, Whermacht were given one offer. if it was not taken, they reaped the consequences.

Story · 10-04-2006, 07:57 PM

Perhaps someone should invite Harper to explain himself?

http://www.arts.auckland.ac.nz/depar...dex.cfm?P=8899
Associate Professor Glyn Harper
Director
Centre for Defence Studies / Military Studies Institute
Massey University
Website

Specialities:

Australian and New Zealand military history
Peacekeeping
The theory and practice of command
The Great War
Email: g.j.harper@massey.ac.nz
Physical: Old Building, Tennent Drive, Palmerston North Campus
Postal: Private Bag 11 222, Palmerston North, New Zealand
Phone: +64 6 350 5456
Fax: +64 9 350 5676

10-04-2006, 01:13 PM	#1 (permalink)
Jim Clay Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 255	VC winner branded 'war criminal' - wore a German paratrooper's smock to dupe snipers This morning's online Telegraph contains the following item about NZ VC winner Sgt A C Hulme - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...C-new_10042006 The authors of a new book suggest that Sgt Hulme's ruse of donning a German para's smock to dupe German snipers was "an act of perfidy under international law", and another NZ academic suggests that Sgt Hulme's actions (killing enemy soldiers while wearing their uniform) were "prima facie a war crime". Do Forum members believe that Sgt Hulme's disguise was an acceptable action in war? Or is it unarguably against the rules of war? Do they agree the NZ Govt should now apologise for Sgt Hulme's actions? Either way, do they agree with his daughter's statement that accusing him of war crimes was "a terrible thing to bring up". Jim

10-04-2006, 06:08 PM	#6 (permalink)
plant-pilot Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 949	By the very letter of the law what he did can be called 'deception' which is against the Geneva conventions, in reality what he probably though he was doing was using a ruse, which is not against the conventions. Faced with a serious threat of snipers he chose on the spot to go against them alone, out numbered with only a little of a ruse to even up the chances. A very brave thing to do. If it wasn't then he wouldn't have got the VC. It's very easy for academics to sit safe at their desks 60 years on and miles from any battlefield, and sift through history in order to find some contention with which to make their names by making sensation where there is none. They shouldn't dirty the name of a brave man who is no longer here to defend himself. They should leave that to the tabloid press. Let's not forget a few things. If he had been caught he would have been shot on the spot. In the some parts of the war the Germans used whole units of english speaking soldiers dressed as american MPs to decieve and confuse. It would have been simpler, and much more probable today for an air strike to be called in and the entire area suspected of hiding snipers to be laid flat, with rank disregard for the enemy, property or the environment, and likely not to leave any enemy remains to bury. Perfectly legal, but any more or less a 'crime'? __________________ M3... the ship of the desert 2003

10-04-2006, 06:39 PM	#7 (permalink)
Gage Angels one-five Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Somewhere in Time Posts: 1,189	Total war is what it means - TOTAL WAR. __________________ 'There I stood at the bar, wearing a Mae West, no jacket, and beginning to leak blood from my torn boot. None of the golfers took any notice of me - after all, I wasn't a member!' Kenneth Lee - after being shot down on the 18th August 1940. In the USAAF in World War II, over three times as many men were killed as wounded. Donald L. Miller. Avatar: SOE agent Andree Borrel killed at Natzweiler 6th July 1944.

10-04-2006, 06:59 PM	#8 (permalink)
Gnomey Per Ardua Ad Astra Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Royal Deeside/St Andrews, Scotland, UK Posts: 2,931	Agreed Gage. He was being resourceful, why should that be punished. It was a kill or be killed world and he was maximising his chances of surviving, so it was being sneaky, but that is how wars are won, by those who have surprise and catch the enemy unawares which is what he was doing. No he should not and the NZ government shouldn't have to apologise. __________________ "Never in the field of human conflict has so much been owed by so many to so few" Sir Winston Chuchill, Summer 1940 "To him the people of Britain and the free world owe largely the way of life they enjoy today" Ensciption on Hugh Dowding's (AOC Fighter Command 1936-1940) Statue in London Aircraft of World War 2 Forum - A Warbird Forum

10-04-2006, 07:39 PM	#9 (permalink)
51highland Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Ipswich Posts: 713	Half the British army would be classed as war criminals if this is the case. In 1944 after several unpleasant actions, e.g blowing up innocent women and children, or finding comrades with their hands bound with barbed wire and their throats cut, any and all Germans wearing the black ss uniform were never given the opportunity to surrender, Whermacht were given one offer. if it was not taken, they reaped the consequences. __________________ 51 highland www.keep-em-moving.com Là á Bhlàir's math na Càirdean (Friends are good in the day of battle) Na diobair caraid's a charraid (Forsake not a friend in the fray) Cuimhnichibh na suinn nach maireann . Mairidh an cliu beo gu brath. (In memory of the Heroes who are no more. May their Fame live on forever)

10-04-2006, 02:38 PM	#2 (permalink)
Owen Top Moose Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Under the stairs Posts: 8,698	What utter ******, haven't people got better things to do? A Soldier's job in war is to kill the enemy. If this is the case can the German Government apologise to my family for them shooting my Great-Uncle in 1918 after he was wounded? No I don't want one and don't expect one. If the NZ Government do apologise I shall be amazed and digusted. Thanks for raising this point Jim I think this is going to create quite a thread.

10-04-2006, 03:02 PM	#3 (permalink)
Kitty Guest Posts: n/a	What absolute tripe (i would normally use bad language here, but I'm on remand). So he wore a german smock and whacked a few enemy in return without getting his own brains blown out. War ain't nice, and he played by the rules of the battlefield. Good forhim. I know if i was in the midst of a battle i'd rather have someone like him watching my back than some prissy little corporal with the Genevea conventions in his hand. And if apologies are being given out, can germany pelase apologise for shooting half of my uncle's face off at Arnhem before he had even hit the ground? Mind you, look what our government does to our squaddies who give looters the smacking they deserve in Iraq. PC has gone mad. I shall now go away and sit in a darkened room until i calm down again. Kitty

10-04-2006, 07:57 PM	#10 (permalink)
Story Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 32	Perhaps someone should invite Harper to explain himself? http://www.arts.auckland.ac.nz/depar...dex.cfm?P=8899 Associate Professor Glyn Harper Director Centre for Defence Studies / Military Studies Institute Massey University Website Specialities: Australian and New Zealand military history Peacekeeping The theory and practice of command The Great War Email: g.j.harper@massey.ac.nz Physical: Old Building, Tennent Drive, Palmerston North Campus Postal: Private Bag 11 222, Palmerston North, New Zealand Phone: +64 6 350 5456 Fax: +64 9 350 5676

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