French Fighting ability

[Owen]

Lee, that would be Roden Cutler in 1941.
>>> RODEN CUTLER VC
photo on here>>> Lieutenant Arthur Roden Cutler, VC

That was the point I was making in post #1, it seems the only time the French fighting man got praised on this forum was when he was fighting against the Allies, hence the reason I started the thread.

[spidge]

Originally Posted by Owen D

Lee, that would be Roden Cutler in 1941.
>>> RODEN CUTLER VC
photo on here>>> Lieutenant Arthur Roden Cutler, VC

That was the point I was making in post #1, it seems the only time the French fighting man got praised on this forum was when he was fighting against the Allies, hence the reason I started the thread.

A very brave man and a wonderful Australian in the post war. The Vichy fighting ability was suppressed as was the similar fighting ability of the Allied force.

The Australian 7th division was the "forgotten division" as well. Their fierce fighting and strength of victory was not "trumpeted". This was due to the political considerations of French and Allied troops fighting the French legion.

Much was made politically of the Australian 6th division infantry firstly routing the Italians out of Bardia and Tobruk, and the Australian 9th Division the first to defeat the Germans and Blitzkrieg at Tobruk however the 7th, being first to defeat the "French" would have gone done like a lead balloon.

[4th wilts]

i think i am right in saying that a nurse thought v.c meant viet,cong.yours,4th wilts.

[4th wilts]

again not privy to records,but i remember reading about the french airforce.they put up a good fight,in imho inferior aircraft.yours.4th wilts.

[Paul Reed]

Originally Posted by 4th wilts

i think i am right in saying that a nurse thought v.c meant viet,cong.yours,4th wilts.

What an earth are you talking about?

[4th wilts]

i think cutler mentioned it in a t.v appearance about the victoria cross.yours,4th wilts.

[Paul Reed]

Okay, but pray tell what an earth this has got to do with the fighting ability of French soldiers? Your ability to take an interesting thread to some bizarre corners never ceases to amaze me.

[ADM199]

Originally Posted by Owen D

Lee, that would be Roden Cutler in 1941.
>>> RODEN CUTLER VC
photo on here>>> Lieutenant Arthur Roden Cutler, VC

That was the point I was making in post #1, it seems the only time the French fighting man got praised on this forum was when he was fighting against the Allies, hence the reason I started the thread.

Fought extremely well ; How many chose to join their fellow Countrymen and fight with the Allies in N/Africa. How many chose to ship out of Syria.?

[Len Trim]

Edward Spears in 'Assignment to Catastrophe' makes it clear that although many French soldiers undoubtedly fought bravely the morale of the French officers at the highest level was abysmal. After only a couple of weeks in charge Weygand was looking to surrender and was wanting to pin the blame for defeat on Britain. Reynaud tried bravely to stand up to him, but Petain and Weygand's defeatism was too much for him. Throughout the book Spears gives eyewitness accounts of French soldiers, tanks and fighters unused while Weygand screamed of having no reserves and demanded the last of Britain's fighters. Spears gives a blistering account of French fighter pilots refusing to leave their lunch to fly to protect their own troops and refused British pilots permission to fly!
Look at the bigger picture. France was a country split from top to toe politically. Many of the middle class preferred a Fascist government to democracy, especially if democracy meant a left wing government. If keeping the left out meant an accommodation with Hitler so be it. The extent of the voluntary collaboration of the Vichy government with Nazi Germany says it all. De Gaulle was extremely generous not to have had many more of them executed than he actually did after France was liberated. With the military leaders that they had in 1940 it's surprising the French forces lasted so long.


Len

[Harry Ree]

Originally Posted by Len Trim

Edward Spears in 'Assignment to Catastrophe' makes it clear that although many French soldiers undoubtedly fought bravely the morale of the French officers at the highest level was abysmal. After only a couple of weeks in charge Weygand was looking to surrender and was wanting to pin the blame for defeat on Britain. Reynaud tried bravely to stand up to him, but Petain and Weygand's defeatism was too much for him. Throughout the book Spears gives eyewitness accounts of French soldiers, tanks and fighters unused while Weygand screamed of having no reserves and demanded the last of Britain's fighters. Spears gives a blistering account of French fighter pilots refusing to leave their lunch to fly to protect their own troops and refused British pilots permission to fly!
Look at the bigger picture. France was a country split from top to toe politically. Many of the middle class preferred a Fascist government to democracy, especially if democracy meant a left wing government. If keeping the left out meant an accommodation with Hitler so be it. The extent of the voluntary collaboration of the Vichy government with Nazi Germany says it all. De Gaulle was extremely generous not to have had many more of them executed than he actually did after France was liberated. With the military leaders that they had in 1940 it's surprising the French forces lasted so long.


Len

I would say that this is an accurate assessment of France's postion in 1940.

Pre war, the Government of Leon Blum was despised by the right wing and became the scapegoat for the decline of France's influence in Europe and its defeat.After the 1940 armistice,Blum and others of the Third Republic were put on trial by the Vichy at Riom for the mere act of declaring war on Germany.The trial came to nought for the accused were able to point the finger at Petain and the French General Staff and show that the accusers were largely responsible for the French unpreparedness which led to the fall of France.The trial was adjourned indefinitely but members of the Third Republic were held in Vichy prisons and later German prisons until the Nazi collapse.

Without doubt,France although having a superior army and armour was badly led in the field but the political will was not evident.

Reynaud's postion was highlighted when in a cabinet meeting of June 12 1940 he uttered the statement "You think that Hitler is another Wilhelm1,the old gentleman who took Alsace- Lorraine and that was all.But Hitler is Ghengis Khan" (Reynaud was one who was to be held by Vichy and the Germans)

Weygand defeatism was show by in appraisal of him by Paul Marie de la Gorce who related "Like all military man of the generation that had been victorious in 1918,he could not imagine that any other army was comparable to the French,except the German Army.Since the German Army had just won a decisive victory in France, he could not imagine that any other power might match it in armed strength.Thus he thought, Germany had vitually won the war in western Europe"

Incidentally, De Gaulle, although intent on purging the French of the leading Vichyites and collaborators from a position he publically declared in 1943, he was anxious not to go too far and destroy post war French unity.As it was, a number of important Vichy offenders who implemented Vichy policy and German occupational policy slipped through the net and were able to lead normal occupations unitl they were exposed the the late 1980s and 1990s.