rifles v's machine gun

[mallory]

So many elements to answer.

The US was the only army to have a semi automatic rifle... and good it was too. It had limitations, but in general was a nice serviceable weapon. (The main flaw was with the stripper clip, which meant that you had to fire the entire clip, before you could reload).

The British Army squad went to war with one Bren (LMG) and the rest with rifles, so 2 very junior NCO's (rifle armed), 1 Bren Gun, 1 No.2 on a Bren gun (rifle armed) and 6 riflemen (3 designated as 'bombers' - grenade throwers).

This did change slowly over time with the introduction of the Sten (SMG). Even so the British army showed a strong reluctance to change from its rifle (the legendary Lee Enfield).

The German army, contrary to popular opinion, despite having machine pistols (they weren't really sub machine guns, at that stage) was still predominantly rifle armed at the start of the war. This changes quite fast, which is where the confusion lies. By the end of the war, very few rifle armed German soldiers are to be found and they've even introduced (in small numbers) an assault rifle.

Hope that helps.

[plant-pilot]

Originally Posted by mallory

So many elements to answer.

The US was the only army to have a semi automatic rifle... and good it was too. It had limitations, but in general was a nice serviceable weapon. (The main flaw was with the stripper clip, which meant that you had to fire the entire clip, before you could reload).

The British Army squad went to war with one Bren (LMG) and the rest with rifles, so 2 very junior NCO's (rifle armed), 1 Bren Gun, 1 No.2 on a Bren gun (rifle armed) and 6 riflemen (3 designated as 'bombers' - grenade throwers).

This did change slowly over time with the introduction of the Sten (SMG). Even so the British army showed a strong reluctance to change from its rifle (the legendary Lee Enfield).

The German army, contrary to popular opinion, despite having machine pistols (they weren't really sub machine guns, at that stage) was still predominantly rifle armed at the start of the war. This changes quite fast, which is where the confusion lies. By the end of the war, very few rifle armed German soldiers are to be found and they've even introduced (in small numbers) an assault rifle.

Hope that helps.

Hi there mallory, it does say that you are from the UK, so why do you have to use american terms when talking about British units? The Americans had the squad as their smallest fighting unit, but the British always used the sub-unit of 'Section'.

As you pointed out, the basic section was indeed led by two JNCO's although the term 'very junior' may be a little unfair. The Section was split into two 'groups. The 'Rifle Group' was the majority of the section, armed with rifles, led by the Section Commander (Corporal) and was used in the attack to close with the enemy, while the 'Gun Group' consisting of two men and the Bren Gun, led by the Section 2i/c (Lance Corporal) who also acted as No.2 on the gun, provided flanking and supressive fire.

Although it may seem strange to have the 2i/c of the section split from the rest of the section with the gun group and use him as the No.2 on the Bren, but he was there as important tactical decisions needed to be taken on sighting and movement of the gun group (70% of the Section's firepower), in days before the use of radio within a section.

As for 'Bombers', everyone in a section should have been issued with grenades if available. Would you know who would be in the right position to use one? You may be able to plan who you want to be in the right place to use one, but plans are fairly fragile things.

Too many people confuse a 'squad' with a 'section'. They are supposed to do a similar job but are oganized differently and use completely different tactics.

[von Poop]

Originally Posted by mallory

By the end of the war, very few rifle armed German soldiers are to be found and they've even introduced (in small numbers) an assault rifle.

Ayup Mallory,
Welcome to here.

Sorry to pick nits (but as we all like a bit of pedantry ) The vast majority of German soldiers carried the k98 rifle as a primary weapon right until the bitter end. The perception that SMG's dominated seems to originate from a few famous photographs and a lot of Hollywood films. As many as 10 times the amount of K98's were built relative to the MP40, they were never in short supply and generally popular. To the extent that they went on to serve in many of the worlds armies, some as late as the 1980's.

Have fun and keep posting.
Cheers,
Adam.

[panzerschmuck]

Was there a particular method to determine which troops were equipped with rifles and which with submachine guns, or was it more or less a random process depending on what was available when troops were issued their weapons?

[Doc]

"The US was the only army to have a semi automatic rifle... and good it was too. It had limitations, but in general was a nice serviceable weapon. (The main flaw was with the stripper clip, which meant that you had to fire the entire clip, before you could reload)."

Not quite-- Other nations had semi-autos as well. Russia and Germany come to mind immediately. However, they were never issued in quantities sufficient to replace the bolt actions. It is perhaps safe to say that the US was the only nation to use them as standard issue to a large proportion of their forces. The rifle described in the previous reply was the M-1Garand in calliber 30-06, and it did not use a stripper clip, but an "en bloc" clip from which the cartridges were taken only when fired, unlike a stripper clip, which was used only to load the weapon, and was then thrown away. While it is true that it was not possible to simply "top up" the Garand when the clip was partially used, it was possible to dump the whole clip and its remaining rounds rapidly to reload (dumb, I think, but possible-- reloading the Garand can be done VERY rapidly when the previous clip is expended). But, we can't forget that actually the US Carbine, Caliber .30 carbine (not the same cartridge as the garand-- an intermediate cartridge of about the same power as a .357 magnum pistol round), was issued in much higher numbers than was the Garand, which is much more well-known. I don't have numbers available right now, but as I remember, nearly 6 million of the little carbines were manufactured-- they soldier on in various parts of the world, last being used in quantity during the Viet-Nam war. Doc

[Cpl Rootes]

Russia's semi auto - the Tokarev SVT had been in production since the late 30's and had been developed over a 15+ year period