Dieppe, 64 years ago.

[lancesergeant]

Originally Posted by Erik

Rationale

The 1942 raid on the French port of Dieppe, code-named Operation Jubilee, was spearheaded by Churchill's new Chief of Combined Operations, Louis Mountbatten, who chose the Canadian 2nd Division to lead the attack. The aim was to seize and hold a major Channel port, test new amphibious equipment, gather intelligence from prisoners [and possibly Enigma-encoded German radio traffic] and gauge how the Germans responded to an invading force. A primary goal was also to boost Allied morale, devastated by losses in North Africa and Russia.

Churchill hoped the use of Canadian troops would satisfy the Canadian commanders following the long inactivity of Canadian forces in England. General Andrew McNaughton, who commanded the First Canadian Army and General H.D.G. Crerar, commander of I Canadian Corps eagerly accepted this chance for Canadian soldiers to get some combat experience. They had been stationed in Great Britain for two years without having ever engaged the enemy in a major operation. Canadian public opinion was starting to question this inactivity, and Canadian soldiers were raring to go.

Churchill also wanted some good news to counter the defeats in Africa that Spring. The British press were clamoring for action, the Soviets were pushing Roosevelt to open a second front in Europe, and the overconfident Americans in turn were pressuring Churchill to mount some kind of operation. The British Prime Minister, who felt that one Gallipoli in a lifetime was enough, balked at a full-scale assault with litle chance of success. But he gave the green light to Mountbatten.

Thanks for that Erik, I'm much obliged,clears some things up. It begs the question though of what was going to happen to these troops if they had taken a strong foothold. How were they to consolidate their gains.

[Gerry Chester]

Erik, thank you for your posting.

Wednesday, 19th August, 1942.

We will never know how many owe their lives due the efforts of those who gave theirs on that day. The value of the lessons learned and put into practice is beyond calculation.

Some small but important corrections to what has been posted: Of the 29 tanks that exited the landing craft 27 made it to the beach, 2 having drowned. Of those that landed, 15 negotiated the chert making the climb up on to the promenade. As the planned destruction of the road blocks by REs did not take place the Churchills, being unable to make further progress, orders were given to return whence they came, 10 making it back to the beach successfully.

[spidge]

Originally Posted by Gerry Chester

Erik, thank you for your posting.

Wednesday, 19th August, 1942.

We will never know how many owe their lives due the efforts of those who gave theirs on that day. The value of the lessons learned and put into practice is beyond calculation.

Some small but important corrections to what has been posted: Of the 29 tanks that exited the landing craft 27 made it to the beach, 2 having drowned. Of those that landed, 15 negotiated the chert making the climb up on to the promenade. As the planned destruction of the road blocks by REs did not take place the Churchills, being unable to make further progress, orders were given to return whence they came, 10 making it back to the beach successfully.

I read somewhere years ago that Mountbatten said: "10 allied lives were saved on D-Day for every allied combatant that died at Dieppe!"

[Gerry Chester]

Thank you Spidge. I too recall something that Mountbatten said (or wrote) after Dieppe, but not the details.
His estimate of a 10 to 1 ratio of lives saved from the lessons learned by the Allies, without specific data to base it on appears to be an exercise in guess-work, but doubtless it must have be a substantial one.

Fortunately, one lesson that could have been learned by the Germans was not. If it had been, an analysis of how and where the deaths of the eighty-three men of the North Irish Horse who gave their lives in WW II occurred, indicates the number would have been greater.

[Andy in West Oz]

Heck of an experiment.

Had forgotten the Allies lost so many in the air as well.

The first aerial victory for the Mustang was an Fw-190 over Dieppe by a Canadian called Hollis Hills I think flying a Mustang Mk I.

Cheers

Andy

[spidge]

Originally Posted by Gerry Chester

Thank you Spidge. I too recall something that Mountbatten said (or wrote) after Dieppe, but not the details.
His estimate of a 10 to 1 ratio of lives saved from the lessons learned by the Allies, without specific data to base it on appears to be an exercise in guess-work, but doubtless it must have be a substantial one.

Fortunately, one lesson that could have been learned by the Germans was not. If it had been, an analysis of how and where the deaths of the eighty-three men of the North Irish Horse who gave their lives in WW II occurred, indicates the number would have been greater.

I agree that 10 to 1 is an easy figure to pluck out of thin air however with the benefit of hindsight he could see many of the holes that were in the initial operation.

Mountbatten in the initial plan "Rutter" had asked for a Battleship to decimate the defences he thought was there however they ended up with 4'' guns from destroyers which were inadequate in firepower and accuracy as they could not get lose enough to the shore without coming under fire from shore batteries.

Intelligence agencies of the allies were not consulted in detail for the initial "Rutter" or "Jubilee" operations. Intelligence on defences from early 1941 was used.

Bomber aircraft were initially included to wreak havoc on the defences however this was watered down as well.

Fighter aircraft was less than originally promised as was the object of their targeting orders.

"Older" officers in the Canadian divisions were replaced with the exuberance of youth and therefore it was supposed .....experience.

Co-ordination to the beaches was not all it could have been.

When the battle was lost, inexperience apparently requested more reserves to be landed.

Poor communication with other groups and the flotilla was apparently of grave concern after the landings. The Allied Command, based on the HMS Calpe, seeing nothing happening on land because of extremely thick smoke and being badly informed because of failing transmissions, sent in fresh back-up troops.

Their arrival was announced prematurely when they unexpectedly ran into a small German convoy sailing from Boulogne to Dieppe.

After the cancellation of "Rutter" Monty sent a letter to his superiors to the effect that another site be selected as security would have been breached. This was rejected.

The Germans through this security breach mayhave/did know that Dieppe was the initial target. In naming the operation "Jubilee" it could have enforced Dieppe as a target as "Jubilee" was the actual code name for Dieppe.

The Royal Regiment of Canada landed later than planned at Puys in broad daylight.

The tanks that were to cover the Royal Hamilton and Essex Scottish were 15 minutes late and could not offer the planned support.

The Germans lost 40 aircraft while the RAF lost 107. This too was the largest one day loss ever for the RAF. The RAF suffered the same fate as did the Germans in the BoB. In this it was close to German airfields.

Allied air reconnaissance had failed to locate gun positions hidden in the cliffs surrounding the port and it was these that caused such devastation.

Major General JH Roberts (Canadian) ordered two of his reserve units ashore; The Royal Marine 'A' Commando were fortunate to have a commanding officer who turned back some of the landing craft to avoid fatalities.

No written record remains of the Chiefs of Staff approving the raid and it is rumoured that Mountbatten proceeded without authorisation.

[spidge]

Originally Posted by lancesergeant

Thanks for that Erik, I'm much obliged,clears some things up. It begs the question though of what was going to happen to these troops if they had taken a strong foothold. How were they to consolidate their gains.

They were to assault the targets and be pulled out in 12 hours.

[spidge]

This begs another question?

What would have been the result on D-Day if Dieppe had been a success?

This debacle may have given the Germans a false sense of security.

[lancesergeant]

Are we saying basically it was to try out beach landing/assault techniques and gave the chance for the Canadian forces a chance to cut their teeth so to speak??

[spidge]

Sadly it would seem that way to me!