Jewish aircrew

lancesergeant · 13-08-2006, 06:33 PM

It has crossed my mind with the treatment by the Germans of the Jews - a question. Geneva convention aside, were there any cases of Jewish soldiers or downed airmen, being segregated and mistreated by the German authorities on account of their religion/beliefs. It makes one think that if they would persecute Jews of their own nationality, what's to say they wouldn't do this to Jewish prisoners as well.

morse1001 · 13-08-2006, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lancesergeant

It has crossed my mind with the treatment by the Germans of the Jews - a question. Geneva convention aside, were there any cases of Jewish soldiers or downed airmen, being segregated and mistreated by the German authorities on account of their religion/beliefs. It makes one think that if they would persecute Jews of their own nationality, what's to say they wouldn't do this to Jewish prisoners as well.

Cant really tell, I have not read of any accounts of Jewish crewmen being seperated from the rest.

von Poop · 13-08-2006, 06:55 PM

Interesting question though, I'd always thought they were (perhaps strangely) treated ok.
This site however:
http://www.jewishsightseeing.com/wri...OWs_review.htm
though obviously presented from a certain angle refers to mistreatment.
Cheers,
Adam

Harry Ree · 14-08-2006, 11:14 AM

The Jewish servicemen POWs who ran the greater risk of death and vanishing via the Nazi policy of "Nacht und Nebel" were the former German Jews who had been recruited into the British forces.

All were highly motivated to strike against their former oppressers.Many served with distinction in all three services and had the advantage of speaking German as their first language.

For their protection all were registered under assumed Anglicised names.

lancesergeant · 14-08-2006, 08:22 PM

Harry it poses another question if an uneasy one. With the moles/ferrets planted in the camp, a German speaking Jew would have to be careful what he said. Saying that if a German Jew was taken away and was in the service of the Allies surely it would come under Geneva convention. If this happened I can imagine they would get round it by saying that he was a German citizen - still registered as one and hence a traitor or the like. But in a shower how could a person explained the obvious circumcision. Saying that it makes you think how black servicemen were treated. Would they be treated like the Jews or the soviet"untermensh". Hitler had a devout hatred for the Jews and Slavs, and he did walk out at the presentation of medals to the black US athletes in Berlin.

lancesergeant · 14-08-2006, 08:34 PM

Thanks Adam, that's cleared up a point about the circumcision. You have to feel for the bloke who was told to discard his dogtag. He felt guilt, but his comrades in arms thought more of him than a dogtag. It is natural to feel guilt for others of his faith, but he was helpless to do so. But in saying that if they had chance to ditch their dogtags I believe they would. It is probable that they didn't get the chance to do so. Also in the initial shower/de-licing whatever it would have took some explaining away. They must have known they would be marked men, I can only assume that they didn't get chance to ditch them.

It is a bit of a sickener how the authorities told them not to talk about it. Funny how they can sweep the sacrifices of their citizens under the carpet to keep in with a few Nazi scientists. Double standards afoot.

Kiwiwriter · 14-08-2006, 11:02 PM

Some were shipped to concentration camps, if their dogtags or paybooks had the magic word on them. Many American and British servicemembers of Jewish origin left their religion off their dogtags for that reason.

In Hong Kong's Sai Wan War Cemetery lies a Canadian serviceman named Rosenberg, who has no religion on his tombstone. He was killed in the battle for Hong Kong. He obviously kept his religion off of his dogtag in case the Germans got him. The Japanese did instead, which is a great irony.

Barga: Prisoners of Another War, describes the fate of Jewish GIs captured in the Bulge. They were sent to a concentration camp at Barga and used for slave labor.

spidge · 14-08-2006, 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiwiwriter

The Japanese did instead, which is a great irony.

They treated all prisoners the same.............very poorly!

Harry Ree · 15-08-2006, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lancesergeant

Thanks Adam, that's cleared up a point about the circumcision. You have to feel for the bloke who was told to discard his dogtag. He felt guilt, but his comrades in arms thought more of him than a dogtag. It is natural to feel guilt for others of his faith, but he was helpless to do so. But in saying that if they had chance to ditch their dogtags I believe they would. It is probable that they didn't get the chance to do so. Also in the initial shower/de-licing whatever it would have took some explaining away. They must have known they would be marked men, I can only assume that they didn't get chance to ditch them.

It is a bit of a sickener how the authorities told them not to talk about it. Funny how they can sweep the sacrifices of their citizens under the carpet to keep in with a few Nazi scientists. Double standards afoot.

Circumcision can never be the ultimate test for one's religion.

Regarding "special treatment" for those POWs who were circumcised.The German authorities were always conscious of retaliation by the Allies on German POWs.

The other important point was that it would be foolhardy for a POW get rid of his identity disc.This important aspect of POW identity was a "lifesaver" in the event of recapture when "on the run".Carrying forged papers as a foriegn worker etc was all very well until the POW was recaptured.To receive treatment again as a POW according to the Geneva Convention and not harsh treatment or death,the POW had to provide evidence that he was indeed a POW.If the POW could not supply official identity,the best he could do was to plead his being as a POW.He could be considered to be lucky not to be caught up with local Nazi Party thugs or as the war went on,the younger fanatics of the Hitler Youth.

However, there were cases of course of "persistence escapers" being murdered on recapture,identity discs or not,usually with a note to the Protecting Power,"shot while attempting to escape."Some these POWs vanished as "Nacht und Nebel",their final movements and resting place still unknown.

Then there is the infamous case of the 50 who were murdered on the mass escape from Stalag Luft 111,murdered on the whim of Hitler as an example and actioned down the Gestapo chain of command to the local thugs.

lancesergeant · 16-08-2006, 03:29 AM

Agree with you on the circumcision question. It would be up to the individual parents concerned and some children were circumcised on health /medical grounds. My comment is that of the logic in Adams article where a non - Jew was taken away due to his being circumcised. The logic implied here by them, "he's circumcised, he must be jewish".

Good point about the dog tags, I can see where you're coming from with the point about not having them could mean not being able to prove pow status. My comment is reflected in the comment that the Germans saw the H on the dog tag marking them out as Jewish. It would be interesting to see if numbers of men who had the H on their dogtags disappeared on Nacht und Nebel as you put it. Maybe the reason those who were led away kept their tags is like you say not otherwise being able to prove pow status, but saying that do they weigh it up by disposing of the potential incriminating h embossed tag.

Something must have filtered through for this soldier to ditch his tag. Were cases of atrocities to Jews getting through to the pows.

13-08-2006, 06:33 PM	#1 (permalink)
lancesergeant Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 778	Jewish aircrew It has crossed my mind with the treatment by the Germans of the Jews - a question. Geneva convention aside, were there any cases of Jewish soldiers or downed airmen, being segregated and mistreated by the German authorities on account of their religion/beliefs. It makes one think that if they would persecute Jews of their own nationality, what's to say they wouldn't do this to Jewish prisoners as well.

14-08-2006, 08:22 PM	#5 (permalink)
lancesergeant Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 778	Harry it poses another question if an uneasy one. With the moles/ferrets planted in the camp, a German speaking Jew would have to be careful what he said. Saying that if a German Jew was taken away and was in the service of the Allies surely it would come under Geneva convention. If this happened I can imagine they would get round it by saying that he was a German citizen - still registered as one and hence a traitor or the like. But in a shower how could a person explained the obvious circumcision. Saying that it makes you think how black servicemen were treated. Would they be treated like the Jews or the soviet"untermensh". Hitler had a devout hatred for the Jews and Slavs, and he did walk out at the presentation of medals to the black US athletes in Berlin. Last edited by lancesergeant; 14-08-2006 at 08:29 PM.

14-08-2006, 11:02 PM	#7 (permalink)
Kiwiwriter Very Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Newark, NJ, and Christchurch, NZ Posts: 2,431	Jewish POWs Some were shipped to concentration camps, if their dogtags or paybooks had the magic word on them. Many American and British servicemembers of Jewish origin left their religion off their dogtags for that reason. In Hong Kong's Sai Wan War Cemetery lies a Canadian serviceman named Rosenberg, who has no religion on his tombstone. He was killed in the battle for Hong Kong. He obviously kept his religion off of his dogtag in case the Germans got him. The Japanese did instead, which is a great irony. Barga: Prisoners of Another War, describes the fate of Jewish GIs captured in the Bulge. They were sent to a concentration camp at Barga and used for slave labor. __________________ "My intensity is intense." -- Roger Clemens "We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender." -- Winston Churchill. "I am not a hero. The heroes are all dead. I am a survivor." -- Sgt. William Guarnere, Easy Company, 506th Parachute Regiment, 101st Airborne Division. Check out my little contributions to World War II history at my web pages: World War II Plus 55 or http://davidhlippman.wildbillguarnere.com

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13-08-2006, 06:55 PM	#3 (permalink)
von Poop I Like Tanks Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Perfidious Albion. Posts: 8,471	Interesting question though, I'd always thought they were (perhaps strangely) treated ok. This site however: http://www.jewishsightseeing.com/wri...OWs_review.htm though obviously presented from a certain angle refers to mistreatment. Cheers, Adam

14-08-2006, 11:14 AM	#4 (permalink)
Harry Ree Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 634	The Jewish servicemen POWs who ran the greater risk of death and vanishing via the Nazi policy of "Nacht und Nebel" were the former German Jews who had been recruited into the British forces. All were highly motivated to strike against their former oppressers.Many served with distinction in all three services and had the advantage of speaking German as their first language. For their protection all were registered under assumed Anglicised names.

14-08-2006, 08:34 PM	#6 (permalink)
lancesergeant Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 778	Thanks Adam, that's cleared up a point about the circumcision. You have to feel for the bloke who was told to discard his dogtag. He felt guilt, but his comrades in arms thought more of him than a dogtag. It is natural to feel guilt for others of his faith, but he was helpless to do so. But in saying that if they had chance to ditch their dogtags I believe they would. It is probable that they didn't get the chance to do so. Also in the initial shower/de-licing whatever it would have took some explaining away. They must have known they would be marked men, I can only assume that they didn't get chance to ditch them. It is a bit of a sickener how the authorities told them not to talk about it. Funny how they can sweep the sacrifices of their citizens under the carpet to keep in with a few Nazi scientists. Double standards afoot.

16-08-2006, 03:29 AM	#10 (permalink)
lancesergeant Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 778	Agree with you on the circumcision question. It would be up to the individual parents concerned and some children were circumcised on health /medical grounds. My comment is that of the logic in Adams article where a non - Jew was taken away due to his being circumcised. The logic implied here by them, "he's circumcised, he must be jewish". Good point about the dog tags, I can see where you're coming from with the point about not having them could mean not being able to prove pow status. My comment is reflected in the comment that the Germans saw the H on the dog tag marking them out as Jewish. It would be interesting to see if numbers of men who had the H on their dogtags disappeared on Nacht und Nebel as you put it. Maybe the reason those who were led away kept their tags is like you say not otherwise being able to prove pow status, but saying that do they weigh it up by disposing of the potential incriminating h embossed tag. Something must have filtered through for this soldier to ditch his tag. Were cases of atrocities to Jews getting through to the pows.

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