Six Million a true figure?

[Kyt]

Re: my post (#17), the best summary ever about the deniers is IMO:

"Up to today holocaust deniers have been unable to produce,in forty years of effort,a counter-narrative to the inherited history of Auschwitz.The deniers claim to be revisionist historians, but they have yet to produce a history that offers a plausible,"revised " explanation of the events in question.Until now,they have had a nihilist agenda.They have attacked the inherited account on the unproven assumption of some general conspiracy,but they have not been able,or willing,to produce serious revisionist historiography that gives us the origin and development of this conspiracy,the reason why and how it seized on,of all places,those very "ordinary " Auschwitz concentration camps as the fulcrum of its effort to hoodwink both gentiles and Jews,to leverage the international community in general,and defraud the Germans and the Arabs in particular.At the moment the best the negationist have done in this respect is either Arthur Butz's rambling and highly implausible suggestion that the origin of the conspiracy was somehow tied to the American need to accelerate in 1942 its synthetic rubber program,or a certain "Samuel Crowell's " more recent attempt to describe,in good post-modern fashion,Auschwitz as the result of "intertextuality."5 And if the actual war-time history of Auschwitz and Birkenau was indeed one of relative normality,comparable to the histories of Dachau,Buchenwald and Sachsenhausen,with only typhus epidemics as an extra permanent fixture to explain the increased mortality,then one should expect holocaust deniers to produce,accepting the criteria and constraints of accepted historical scholarship,a transparent and coherent account to that effect.At the moment nothing exists even resembling this.Certainly,the negationists have shown great creativity in inventing many alternative explanations for each aspect of the camp's history that seems to point to a deliberate program of genocide,but none of them are reconciled in one plausible narrative -a history that would force the negationists to choose between the many options they have imagined,to seriously engage with issues of relevancy and causation,and to apply judgement."

Van Pelt Report - Part Four - Section VII

Holocaust Denial On Trial

[PeterG]

Originally Posted by BulgarianSoldier

Ok PeterG thanks.I didn't know most of those facts.
But for one thing i cant balive.They cant burn the bodys so much because however there will be bones not only ashes.Of course germans can use oil or gasoline but to burn jews isn't beter to shot them?
Of course i dont say nothing about the gas chambers i know they are made to kill so im not denie them.

And because i forget to say something importand.There was a water water around Autshwitz.And what live near the swamps? A lot of musquitos and they can carry a lot of illness.And a lot of jews have died because of illness, the germans didn't care to give them medical support.

Taking each point you raise in turn:

1. They cant burn the bodys so much because however there will be bones not only ashes.

I replied to this. For your convenience I will copy what I said here: All that remains after burning a corpse at over 1,000° is mostly ash except for certain bone fragments.

2. Of course germans can use oil or gasoline but to burn jews isn't beter to shot them?

The point I made was that they had no need to use valuable gasoline and oil. As for shooting them, there were mass shootings on a large scale to begin with, but Himmler out of genuine kindness and concern (after witnessing a shooting) felt that it was too distressing and demoralising for the overworked executioners. Dropping Cyclon-B pellets into a gas chamber was less distressing.

3. There was a water water around Auschwitz.And what live near the swamps? A lot of mosquitoes and they can carry a lot of illness.And a lot of jews have died because of illness, the germans didn't care to give them medical support.

Mosquitoes carry malaria, specifically the female Anopheles freeborni mosquito. I am quite sure the Jews and other inmates would have settled for that. Are you seriously suggesting that 2.5 million Jews died of malaria in Auschwitz?

[BulgarianSoldier]

Have you ever seen photos of Autshwitz PeterG ? There isn't a hole in the doors to drop Cyclon-B they did this from a holes who actualy are infront of there hospital (that is used for the germans not the jews) Why they should build those holes infront of the hospital?

Look PeterG i dont clame that Musquitos have killed 2,5 milion jews ,the musquitos give not only malaria.The germans cant light the crematoriums to 1000 C Peter this is highly imposible because the crematorium is made by bricks.And malaria is deadly illnes if you dont heal it.

[Kyt]

Dani, have a look at :

Auschwitz — Birkenau Table of Contents

Especially the section on the crematoria:

"According to calculations by the German authorities, 1,440 corpses could be burned in this crematorium every 24 hours"

and this:

Body Disposal at Auschwitz: The End of Holocaust-Denial

[BulgarianSoldier]

the history is write by the winners

[Kyt]

Dani - are you denying that millions of Jews (and millions of others) died in the camps,

or

the fact that their deaths were due to a systematic process of deliberate murder using gas, shootings and starving by the Nazis?

Yes, it's true that history is written by the winners but that doesn't mean that what they write is lies.

[PeterG]

Originally Posted by BulgarianSoldier

Have you ever seen photos of Autshwitz PeterG ?

Yes.

Originally Posted by BulgarianSoldier

There isn't a hole in the doors to drop Cyclon-B they did this from a holes who actualy are infront of there hospital (that is used for the germans not the jews)

The mortuary of the crematorium next to the hospital block was used as a gassing room, after the door was made gas-proof and some holes had been pierced in the ceiling through which the gas could be discharged. Er ... those are not my words, they are those of a reliable witness, SS-Obersturmbannführer Rudolf Hoess, Kommandant of Auschwitz (page 186 of his Autobiography, Phoenix Press, 2000, ISBN 1 84212 024 7).

This particular block was used in the early days to try out this method of gassing. Hoess says he can only recall one transport of 900 Russian POWs gassed in there.

Originally Posted by BulgarianSoldier

The germans cant light the crematoriums to 1000 C Peter this is highly imposible because the crematorium is made by bricks.

This has to be a joke, right? All kilns are built of brick, I have never heard of a stone built kiln.

Porcelain, for example, is fired at 2,650 degrees Fahrenheit (1,454 degrees Celsius) compared to 2,200 degrees Fahrenheit (1,204 degrees Celsius) for china. The temperature in a steel furnace is around 1,500°. Modern crematoria fire at 1,400° to 2,000°. All these are brick-built clay lined furnaces or kilns.

[morse1001]

Originally Posted by BulgarianSoldier

Have you ever seen photos of Autshwitz PeterG ? There isn't a hole in the doors to drop Cyclon-B they did this from a holes who actualy are infront of there hospital (that is used for the germans not the jews) Why they should build those holes infront of the hospital?

Look PeterG i dont clame that Musquitos have killed 2,5 milion jews ,the musquitos give not only malaria.The germans cant light the crematoriums to 1000 C Peter this is highly imposible because the crematorium is made by bricks.And malaria is deadly illnes if you dont heal it.

Sounds like you have been reading the leuchter report concerning the crematoria at Auschwitz.

[PeterG]

Originally Posted by BulgarianSoldier

the history is write by the winners

This is a not a novel concept, but it is totally misleading.

Reliable history is written by professional academic historians trained in research methods, published and reviewed by their peers.

I have an inkling of what they do. I hold a Master's Degree in European studies, but before I got there I had had many an essay laboriously researched (or so I thought) torn to shreds by my professor. A recurring mantra was '.. and the other side's point of view?" and "on what do you ground this point?"

Furthermore, there are now many reputable German, Austrian, and Italian historians internationally renown and of the very first rank.

[ADM199]

Perhaps a look on T.N.A. Web site at the description given for HW16/6 would give a small insite into what was happening on the Russian Front 1941 - 42.