Cassino

[egbert]

My godness what a question. What would the Brits philosophy about without the Germans?

[sokka]

Here is somewhat interesting read what a german grenadier tought of the attacking allied soldiers. In my opinion it allmost feels like he felt sorry for them.
http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/thinks/index.html

(Gerry Chester @ Dec 29 2004, 11:45 AM) [post=30329]Troops from several countries fought in the four battles for Cassino. In your opinion, whose contribution was the most significant and why?
[/b]

I will vote for any country that didn't bomb that fortress. That's one for the fly boys that believe that air attacks were the solution to everything.

But I do wonder about the thinking of the air wings. Why not simply drop fuel bombs on that target and burn them out? It would have been over in about 15 minutes. Its hard to shoot at troops advancing when you are burning to death. They had napalm. Why not drop it in 55 gallon barrels and saturate the place with fire causing everything inside still alive to flee where they could be captured or shot. Am I missing something here?

[angie999]

(jimbotosome @ Nov 27 2005, 07:42 PM) [post=42157]
They had napalm. [/b]

Although napalm was developed in 1942, it was not used operationally until July 1944 in France and during the invasion of Tinian. This is quite a few months after the bombing of the monastery.

I wonder if they even had any in the Italian theatre up to mid 1944.

[Kiwiwriter]

(angie999 @ Nov 26 2005, 06:07 AM) [post=42116]There were four separate battles for Cassino and the first three were not successful. In the final battle, I think the credit must go to:

1. The French who, with their trained mountain troops, were able to take the mountainous area behind Cassino and undermine the position.

2. The Poles, who actually took the monastery.

3. Alexander, plus the commanders of 5th and 8th Armies for a successful, complex operation which undermined the whole German position and would have been more successful if Clark had obeyed his orders and established a blocking position instead of going for Rome.
[/b]

Yes, the French and Poles do not get much attention in America and Britain, because of the language barrier. Their general, Juin, figured out that mountains were not barriers, but could be used by trained troops as passages, and did so successfully. His views did not get a good hearing from his bosses because of the poor French record in 1940 and thereafter. Anders and his men were rendered obscure by the Soviet takeover of Poland.

I have several books on Cassino that correct the record. Horrible battle, for both sides.

Napalm was not ready yet...and Churchill and FDR vetoed the use of poison gas, unless the Germans used it first.

(angie999 @ Nov 28 2005, 06:26 AM) [post=42167]Although napalm was developed in 1942, it was not used operationally until July 1944 in France and during the invasion of Tinian. This is quite a few months after the bombing of the monastery.

I wonder if they even had any in the Italian theatre up to mid 1944.
[/b]

Well, it really didn't have to be napalm. Simply dropping 55 gallon drums of aviation fuel would have burned everything inside to crispy-critters. Once they bombed the place into rubble, the gasoline would permeate the entire facility and eventually everything in it would catch on fire and burn the oxygen out of the facility. This would probably kill them all but would at least allow the forces to move in close to the facility and assault it once the fuel burned out (and cooled off a bit). Think of how many lives, time and money would have been saved.

[Kiwiazza]

hI ALL,

My vote would have to go to the kiwis, call me biased, but my Uncle was severly wounded thier and cassino has always been sacred to us ever sibce.

cheers kiwiazza.

[redrat]

im glad i found this post ,
"be on both the Kiwi's and the 4th Indian divs who went in twice !
Tomcan"
well tomcan im glad you said that , i re-enact the 4th indian division and know one knows who they are and who was in them . but about cassio ,

After the battle of cassio the 4th indain division who attacked the monestry and the castle ! claimbed to be first in (as did the polish), they had foward units who got with in several meters of the monestry and where lost contact with , there is a notable case of an indain NCO leading 3 other indians troops in a charge for the castle and dyeing very close to the walls, but when the polish troops finaly took the monestry they found webbing all over the monestry which was not theirs and it had indian markings on it . the german officer in charge of holding the monestry ( i forget his name) himself said that he had to get ride of several groups of indians several times from the monestry who had entered it . I belive that we can not even begin to talk about who fought the most there , as we were not there and it is not right we do so , also other battles around the monestry were just as improtant . everyone seems to forget about the surronding ridges the castle etc
the 4th indian division was also a montian division after north africa

[jacobtowne]

Here's a photo of New Zealand machine gunners in the Monte Cassino Sector.
They are armed with Smith & Wesson M&P revolvers.
JT

Credit: U.S. Handguns of WWII: The Secondary Pistols and Revolvers by Charles Pate.

[Tom Canning]

Originally Posted by redrat

im glad i found this post ,
"be on both the Kiwi's and the 4th Indian divs who went in twice !
Tomcan"
well tomcan im glad you said that , i re-enact the 4th indian division and know one knows who they are and who was in them . but about cassio ,

After the battle of cassio the 4th indain division who attacked the monestry and the castle ! claimbed to be first in (as did the polish), they had foward units who got with in several meters of the monestry and where lost contact with , there is a notable case of an indain NCO leading 3 other indians troops in a charge for the castle and dyeing very close to the walls, but when the polish troops finaly took the monestry they found webbing all over the monestry which was not theirs and it had indian markings on it . the german officer in charge of holding the monestry ( i forget his name) himself said that he had to get ride of several groups of indians several times from the monestry who had entered it . I belive that we can not even begin to talk about who fought the most there , as we were not there and it is not right we do so , also other battles around the monestry were just as improtant . everyone seems to forget about the surronding ridges the castle etc
the 4th indian division was also a montian division after north africa

Redrat .....

well you see - some of us were there- and we know what went on as some obviously have read the wrong books -

The fourth battle - and the French mountain divisions went over the Aurunci Mountains to the WEST of Cassino from the British held bridgehead over the Rapido/Gariliano Rivers - where there was very little defences or German troops and thus were able to run over the hills etc and beat the 8th Army to above Agnani which was over their boundary - the 8th army meanwhile were still trying to batter down the main defences at both the Gustav and Hitler lines...ask Gerry Chester - he was knocked about at Pontecorvo/Aquino....so it could be said that the French were running through an open door and the 8th army were trying to unlock a bolted door - big difference !

This gave Kesselring pause for thought and he then ordered the German Commanders - Vingtenhoff and Etterlin to pull back and thus the Poles were able to enter the Monastery.

Meanwhile US Gen.Clark had instructed his V1 corps Commander - Truscott - to ignore Alexander's orders to head for Valmantone and attempt to cut off the retreating two German armies and head for Rome - so that he could cut down the sign for ROMA for his back garden in California !

Incidently 4th Indian did not become a Mountain Div in North Africa - but in Ethiopia's Keren Heights - which was another Cassino - when they were sent down there just before the Battle of Beda Fomm when as small British force under Gen. O'Conner wiped out a whole Italian army ! Each 4th Indian brigade had a British battalion. Camerons - Surrey's - West Kents etc.