Lt. Thomas Cartman MC

[Mark Hone]

I have spent several years researching the Bury Grammar school Roll of Honour. One of my remaining 'Mystery Men' is Lieutenant Thomas Cartman who died on 2nd July 1940 and is commemorated on the Brookwood Memorial. I have not been able to find out anything concerning the circumstances of his death. Unusual features are that he was a 47 year-old Lieutenant simply recorded as 'Quartermaster General List'. Was he lost at sea? Where was he going and why was he not assigned to a particular unit at the time of his disappearance/death?
Cartman had been a Captain in the 17th Manchesters (2nd Manchester Pals) in the First World War and had won the MC at Arras.

[Paul Reed]

Mark, from my own research on early WW2 casualties I have found that with a lot of them there is some dispute over when they died and in some cases an 'accepted' date of death is shown, rather than an actual one - simply because it isn't know. This is especially so with men died with the BEF.

Have you tried getting a copy of his Death Certificate - perhaps that has something more specific on it?

[museumtom]

Info from Soldiers died in ww2;
Lt TMC Cartman, first name Thomas, unit....General list,other corps etc, Rank Lieutennant..........it gives him a number which sounds strange perhaps he moved up through the ranks......number 98219 Born in Bolton Residence in salford. died 2/7/1940...and states the Theatre of war is 'at sea'.
That is all from SD in WW2....CWGC says;
CARTMAN, THOMAS
Initials: T
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Lieutenant (Quartermaster)
Regiment: General List
Age: 47
Date of Death: 02/07/1940
Service No: 98219
Awards: MC
Additional information: Son of Thomas and Ann Cartman; husband of Alice Cartman, of Whitefield, Lancashire.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 21. Column 3.
Cemetery: BROOKWOOD MEMORIAL

Tom

[Mark Hone]

Thanks-I hadn't checked him on WWII 'Soldiers Died' but it doesn't do much to solve the mystery, unfortunately. As suspected he died at sea but we don't know where. I'm very puzzled by his 'General List' classification and his age and experience for such a junior rank. I suspect that I shall have to trawl the newspaper archives again...

[Ali Hollington]

Not sure if this could be leading you off down the wrong track but.....,

I put 2nd July 1940 into a search engine (google) and came up with this page:

http://www.bluestarline.org/arandora.html

Basically a ship sunk by a german u-boat whilst transporting POWs, could your man have been part of or in charge of an escort party? The following is an extract from the above website, hope it helps/doesn't hinder:

Built: Cammell Laird & Company Ltd., Birkenhead
O.N.: 149837
As Built: Gross: 12847 Net: 7815 Dimensions: 512.2 x 68.3 x 34.0 feet
As refitted 1928/29: Gross: 14694 Net: 8578 Dimensions: 512.2 x 68.3 x 42.5 feet
Propulsion: Four steam turbines by shipbuilder, single reduction geared to two shafts
Passengers: As built: 164 1st Class As cruise liner: 354 1st Class
Launched: 4/1/1927 ( Yard No.921) as Arandora for Blue Star Line (1920) Ltd.
Completed: 5/1927
Refitted: 1929 as cruise liner by Fairfield Shipbuilding & Engineering Co. Ltd., Glasgow
Renamed: 1929 Arandora Star
Refitted: 1936 Mainmast removed and accommodation extended to poop
Transferred: 1937 to Frederick Leyland & Co. Ltd. (Blue Star Line Ltd. managers)
Lost: 2/7/1940 when torpedoed by German Submarine U-47 about 75 miles west of the Bloody Foreland in position 55.20N, 10.33W [7] , and later sank in position 56.30 N, 10.38W. She was on a voyage from Liverpool to St. John's, Newfoundland, with internees and prisoners of war. A total of 805 persons were lost

[Mark Hone]

Ali,
That is a fascinating lead, and one route I hadn't explored. I will do further digging based on the information you have provided. I will report back anon...
Thanks again,
Mark H.

[BeppoSapone]

Originally posted by Ali Hollington@Mar 19 2004, 09:40 AM
Not sure if this could be leading you off down the wrong track but.....,

I put 2nd July 1940 into a search engine (google) and came up with this page:

http://www.bluestarline.org/arandora.html

Basically a ship sunk by a german u-boat whilst transporting POWs, could your man have been part of or in charge of an escort party? The following is an extract from the above website, hope it helps/doesn't hinder:

This ship was torpedoed by Gunther Prien, and actually the prisoners on the "Arandora Star" were not POWs, but Civilian Internees. They were a mixture of German/Austrians, mostly refugees from Hitler, who had been interned by the British, and "Italians". I used inverted commas around the word Italians because, although of Italian origin, they majority had lived in Britain for most of their lives, and some were even British born.

An "Arandora Star Campaign" has recently been launched, and details can be found here: http://www.arandorastarcampaign.com/

Please note that the list of victims given on this site comes from the names released by the British Government in 1940. All these names give a place of birth in Italy etc, and none in Britain. This is not believable. Another ship, the "Ettrick" was moored next to the "Arandora Star" at Liverpool. Prisoners were placed on the ships in random order, and the "Ettrick" actually reached Canada. One of the prisoners on the "Ettrick", Glaswegian Joe Pieri, has written his story, and claims that a high % of his fellow prisoners were British born, or raised, and many did not speak Italian. Many more were naturalised British subjects. In fact Italian sailors, pulled off of merchant ships, did not think that these internees were Italians. Nazi German fellow prisoners attacked them, as they thought them to be English.

I believe that the Merchant Navy men who were killed in the "Arandora Star" incident are listed on a memorial at Tower Hill, rather than Brookwood. So, unless the CWGC decided to remember the army dead in a seperate place I don't think that Lieutenant Thomas Cartman was on the "Arandora Star".

As far as I am aware none of the drowned prisoners are remembered by the CWGC, despite the fact that some were British born/naturalised British subjects. For example there was the case of a 75 year old naturalised British subject from Hull, whose family caused such a fuss that questions about his death were asked in the House of Commons. He is not listed by the CWGC.