Help wanted with identifications

[Owen]

5th Infantry Division
Y for Yorkshire, the 5th was a Yorkshire division.

Not strictly true. On formation in 1939 some of them were based in Yorkshire or from Yorkshire.
15th Bde were Yorkshire units,
1 Green Howards based Catterick
1 KOYLI at Strensall
1 York & Lancs at Scampston.

13 Bde
2 Cameronians and 2 Wilts based at Catterick
2 Royal Inniskillings from Omagh, their depot in N.Ireland.

17 Bde formed Aldershot
2 Northamptons from N.Ireland
2 RSF & 2 Seaforth from Scotland

9 Fld Regt RA, Regulars from Bulford.Later replaced by TA unit.
91 & 92 Fld Regt and 52 A-Tk Regt RA, all TA from south London.
RE, RASC, R Sigs , RAOC & RAMC partly Regular, partly TA from Liverpool, Wales, the Midlands and almosst all parts of UK.
7 Cheshires, Div MG Bn mobilised at Aldershot, also first TA unit to France in 1939.

Peter, darned good reference there, thanks.

[PeterG]

Owen

Many thanks for your observations. Yes, I am aware of the units in 5th Division, I have a copy of the definitive Orders of Battle by Joslen.

Since there are quite a few good webpages listing units I decided to concentrate on the flashes giving, where possible, their derivation and heraldic meaning. The Y is for Yorkshire, according to Guido Rosognoli's World Army Badges & Insignia since 1939. I have just ordered a copy of Heraldry in war. Formation badges 1939-1945 by Colonel Howard N Cole, published in 1946, so I'll see what he has to say.

You are quite right to point out that of the division's three brigades only one, 15th brigade, was composed of Yorkshire units. But formation flashes were invariably chosen by the men of the formation. What I think may have happened is this: in April 1942 two of the brigades (13th and 17th) became independent and were detached to Force 121 and were sent to Madagascar along with some of the 5th's divisional troops. At that point the division was composed entirely of Yorkshire units of its 15th Brigade and became, de facto, a Yorkshire division. Of course if they had the Y flash prior to April '42 that supposition falls flat

I'm glad you raised this Owen because I show it with a black background, it should be a white Y on a dark green background. George Forty in his British Army Handbook 1939-1945 describes it as a white Y on a khaki background, but I think he is mistaken because a khaki background would be invisible on a khaki uniform - as is the Wikipedia article which says it is a black background.

I will correct that and I'll change the explanation for the Y to "... because of the division's association with Yorkshire"

[Rich Payne]

May I be permitted to jump in here and quote from Cole before Peter's copy arrives ? (It might be my last chance to give the impression that I know what I'm talking about).

"The Divisional sign was, during the war, a white "Y" for Yorkshire to denote its pre-war association with Northern Command. Set on a khaki background, this badge was changed in 1946 and became a white "Y" on a black circular background".

Northern Command's HQ was at York.

Although the Division may have been part of Northern Command, I don't know how many of the component Battalions were pre-war. To fall back on family experience again, I know that 2nd Northamptons were part of Aldershot Command during the early 1930s, transferring to Northern Ireland. To the best of my knowledge, they were not stationed pre-war in the North of England.

I also find it strange that 2nd Division took the Crossed Keys of the Archbishop of York in 1940 although they had been at Aldershot before hostilities and included 2nd Norfolks, 2nd Dorsets and 1st R. Berks.

It would seem that the whim of the C.O. played a large part.

Rich.

[PeterG]

Originally Posted by Rich Payne

"The Divisional sign was, during the war, a white "Y" for Yorkshire to denote its pre-war association with Northern Command. Set on a khaki background, this badge was changed in 1946 and became a white "Y" on a black circular background".

Northern Command's HQ was at York.
........
I also find it strange that 2nd Division took the Crossed Keys of the Archbishop of York in 1940 although they had been at Aldershot before hostilities and included 2nd Norfolks, 2nd Dorsets and 1st R. Berks.

It would seem that the whim of the C.O. played a large part.

Rich.

Well, well, well, so George Forty was right after all, it did have a khaki background! So much for my dark green theory. Back to the drawing board for yet another alteration.

As for 2nd Division's crossed keys, the emblem was indeed chosen by its commander and it had nothing to do with York. As I say on my webpage "2nd Div's emblem was chosen in 1940 by its commander, Major-General H.C. Lloyd, who had previously commanded a Guards Brigade which had a single key for its badge." The crossed keys just so happen to be the arms of the Archbishop of York.

[Rich Payne]

Originally Posted by PeterG

Well, well, well, so George Forty was right after all, it did have a khaki background! So much for my dark green theory. Back to the drawing board for yet another alteration.

As for 2nd Division's crossed keys, the emblem was indeed chosen by its commander and it had nothing to do with York. As I say on my webpage "2nd Div's emblem was chosen in 1940 by its commander, Major-General H.C. Lloyd, who had previously commanded a Guards Brigade which had a single key for its badge." The crossed keys just so happen to be the arms of the Archbishop of York.

Strangely, Cole makes reference to the old tradition of a Northern and a Southern army being raised by the Archbishops of Canturbury and York and that the Northern Army carried St Peter's Keys on their arms. He doesn't actually say that this was the reason for 2nd Div. but I had read it so !

It just goes to show that we need to keep checking and comparing sources, doesn't it ?

Jean Bouchery's "The British Soldier" Volume 1 has clear pictures on p. 84 of the "Y" on a khaki ground. 6th Seaforths placed a triangle of their MacKenzie tartan in the "Y" but this is stated as "non-regulation"

[Owen]

Have this photo of a Y, can't remember where from now.
Looks like khaki.

I will correct that and I'll change the explanation for the Y to "... because of the division's association with Yorkshire"

That sound OK.

[PeterG]

Originally Posted by Owen D

Have this photo of a Y ... Looks like khaki.

Owen, that was very useful. I downloaded your photo into PantShop Pro X and did a colour analysis after an enhanced photo fix. The RGB colour is #989277. I have now updated my image, I had the khaki far too light.

Many thanks.

Any coloured images of 66 Inf Div? I have only seen their flash in b/w. Forty describes it as a light blue triangle with a yellow bar across it. What light blue means is anyone's guess. I simply took the blue on the flash of ANSEAC, but somehow it doesn't look right.

Peter

[Owen]

Just found another one.

Regimental Arm Badges Military Cloth Formation Signs Patches


R1D717 BLM 1.5.8 5th Division (White Y On Khaki Square) 1st Pattern Pre-1946 Printed £20.00

Peter The first one I posted can be found here.Units & Organizations: British, Canadian, Polish

[PeterG]

Owen

That looks a bit dodgy to me, all authorities agree that the Y is white, coloured images also show the Y as white. Unfortunately khaki doesn't reproduce well and we have variations from almost black to dark olive-green in many. The photo you found is more reliable. I've acknowledged your contribution along with Rich's.

At 20 quid a throw there must be a strong temptation to fake some of these.

[Owen]

PeterG;
You are quite right to point out that of the division's three brigades only one, 15th brigade, was composed of Yorkshire units. But formation flashes were invariably chosen by the men of the formation. What I think may have happened is this: in April 1942 two of the brigades (13th and 17th) became independent and were detached to Force 121 and were sent to Madagascar along with some of the 5th's divisional troops. At that point the division was composed entirely of Yorkshire units of its 15th Brigade and became, de facto, a Yorkshire division. Of course if they had the Y flash prior to April '42 that supposition falls flat

It does Peter, in their Div history is a picture of a 5th Div staff car in Larne 1941, with a dark cicle with a Y.
Confused now?
I am.