Heavy Bombers In Normandy

[morse1001]

Okay Gentlemen,

I would ask you to tone down the personal remarks, most of the stuff is very interesting but abuse is not part of a civilised discussion.

[sapper]

removed

[morse1001]

The warning was a general one, if You want to take it personally so be it.

[ham and jam]

I'd say sorry but im not

Brian's big enough, and he would say ugly enough to look after himself, but I think he is treated terribly on here. Its not the first time ive seen it either, what other vets have you on this forum apart from Gerry Chester and Brian? I dont notice many posts from Gerry.

Ive read that this forum has a British bias!! what nonsense, an American is allowed to post aload of nonsense about What the British did or didnt do in Normandy and then accuse a Normandy vet of saying stuff he did not.
No mod intervention there.

I also dont think I made any personal attacks, oh gosh Jimbo old boy your a tad wrong on that matter. If your going to put down a war vet over what he says surely you should have your facts right.

Then he gets

The warning was a general one, if You want to take it personally so be it.

Nice, perhaps we were not making the discussion serious enough. Or perhaps im missing the Scottish humour or 'lack' of it.

I dont care two hoots if im banned, but I think its very sad that a REAL WW2 veteran is treated that way, when he has said bugger all wrong.

One last thing, Jimbo if you want to get a balanced and accurate view of what happened dont just read American books, by people who have grudges and agenda's try a few books by the people your knocking.

Andy
courtmashialed - Guilty as charged SARR

[sapper]

removed

[jimbotosome]

Originally posted by sapper+Sep 6 2005, 07:07 AM-->

Mine either, at times!

Truth has a way of mutating even by those that participated in it. There are various reasons for this. Things get exaggerated by being retold over and over from source to source. Also, as seems to be apparent, there are certain biases of those that “witnessed it”.

And I did acknowledge the fact I had mistaken Bomber Command for the Eighth. They did all take their orders from Ike. My point about Ike become resistant to any type of bombing was factual. Approval of the Caen mission would have gone through SHAEF. Even if Monty had requested it, Ike had to approve it along with the head of Bomber Command?

I believe you believe this sincerely, but I question if that was factual. Monty was stalemated until this bombing. If there was no armor around Caen, what the “heck” was he doing bogged in around Caen? You telling me that infantry held Monty at bay and kept Bradley from moving until Caen was under control? That doesn't jive man.

I believe that. But no way you are going to undermine the difficulty of taking Cherbourg. That dog won't hunt, sapper. Also, you can't belittle the breakout in the Bocages. I am sure you guys had it tough, but you are not giving the US soldiers their "props". That's most unfortunate.

Again, if you had taken out the armor, what were you folks waiting for? Bradley was freaking out thinking Monty was going to get driven back and him then get cut off by Von Kluge. It was a very tense moment. There was a belief that the US would have detach divisions to go reinforce Monty if he couldn't get going.

Sapper, I don’t believe you ought to go there. The reason Patton ran out of fuel in the first place is because Monty’s Market Garden plan caused a month delay in the taking of Antwerp which was Monty’s original objective when he talked Ike into it. This forced the supply lines to remain stretched all the way across France and even with the efficiency of the “Red Ball Express”, the limited fuel destined for Patton was given to Monty to go after V1 and V2 sites. It was the Cannucks that managed to take Antwerp, not the Brits. The fact is that the failure of Monty's Market Garden caused Patton to run out of fuel during October, allowed time for the Germans to fall back to the Siegfried line and fight out of their defensive fortifications. A lot more men died because of Market Garden than those who participated in the actual assault. This is why Patton hated to allow the enemy time to regroup. So your contempt for Patton is a bit brash. BTW: His revolvers were ivory, not pearl.

I don’t doubt books and movies made in the US favor the US troops, I am sure the films and books made in the UK favor the British forces as well. Humans are humans no matter what continent they were on.

I don’t think it is as bad as you say. The movies I have seen said the Brits got the first enigma. Even U-571, a fictional movie, acknowledged the Brits for being first. But, true to form the Brits don’t want to give the Americans credit for capturing a couple of them as well. History documentaries are very complementary to other nation’s forces. But, sapper, doesn't "we were first" campaigning infer an "ego the size of a double decker bus" as you accused Patton of having? Isn't all that matters, at the bottom line is you folks did what you did and the US folks did what they did, and we are both free because of it?

But, I must say sapper, a little humility would be a good thing here. Your contempt for Patton and high praise for Monty is a little exposing. At least the film makers and book publishers have an excuse, they want to sell copies. What was Monty’s excuse? Of all people?! What am I talking about? Well, Monty was always trying to commandeer divisions from Bradley. He even insisted Bradley report to him which would make him a duplication of Ike. He wanted to be across the Rhine first, to get into Berlin first, to get into Palermo first, he wanted to nudge Patton out of the victory at Tobruk. If he got bogged down he would ask for more divisions to be attached to his command. Bradley would occasionally loan Monty divisions to accomplish a task but had trouble getting them back.

Then, there is the Ardennes Offensive incident, which would not have taken place in the first place if Monty had taken Antwerp instead of insisting on the dagger thrust of "Market Garden", because Patton would have been across the Rhine, the offensive could have never have been staged through a weak point in the front were reserves from Huregen Forest were sent to recoup. In this incidnet, the dGerman's rive toward Antwerp threatened to cut off communications to the US 9th Division (Gen. Simpson) that held the left side of the bulge. The decision was made to temporarily put these under Monty just incase their communications were cut off. This was done even though the offensive had already ground to a halt, though it was not certain that it was dead at the time. Monty in an interview with the British “press” talked about he and the British Army saved the “bulge” that the American’s had "gotten themselves into".

This absolutely sent Bradley and Patton through the roof as it was the hardest hitting blow Monty ever attempted against any general and it was an Ally! Bradley was so angry he told Ike he would resign if something wasn’t done. It was an insult of the highest caliber, he was always angry at Ike for molly-coddling Monty. Ike was in a bind because he was afraid the alliance was about to break down. Ike tried to clear it up in the press but they weren't interested. The greatest man of WWII, Sir Winston himself saw there was about to be a collapse in the relationship of the US toward the British forces by this fire Monty started and stepped in to sooth the trouble waters with his quips, always so timely and so apropos which after clarifying that the "bulge" was an American battle and how he credit should not have been given to the British. Basically, the offensive was over before the British had a chance to come to the aid of the US (Bradley said Monty took too long again having to have everything perfect before he would move and never got into the bulge battles except in the British press):

"This is undoubtedly the greatest battle of the War and will, I believe, be regarded as an ever famous American Victory."

This managed to put out the forest fire that Monty had lit.

So, if you want to talk about Patton and his idiosyncrasies, you have to (in fairness) bring out Monty’s as well.


<!--QuoteBegin-sapper@Sep 6 2005, 07:07 AM
This is not an anti American posting, I saw action with them.. great mates. But when it comes to what actually happened then, Oh Lord! What a complete load of fantasy.......

I believe there is plenty of “selective memories” going around on both sides. Such is the nature of men. Something you might think about, I have never heard American soldiers speak with disdain toward the British soldiers. I have heard the opposite quite a bit. I don’t claim to know why there is so much “mealy-mouthing” going on like that. It does not bring honor the British soldier, whose efforts were worthy of honor. If you think Brits are slighted, just think about the poor Canadian, New Zealander, Aussie, Pole, etc that have fallen into relative obscurity. They fought every bit as hard as the Brits and the Amis. At least people in the US know you Brits were in WWII. Those guys can't say that.

[jimbotosome]

Originally posted by sapper@Sep 6 2005, 10:29 AM

Tell me Jimbo, where do you come from? A PM would do.

I live in Tennessee currently. Is that relevant to this discussion or are you simply curious?

[morse1001]

Approval of the Caen mission would have gone through SHAEF. Even if Monty had requested it, Ike had to approve it along with the head of Bomber Command?

According to proberts biography of Harris, monty asked for it directly. harris would not have needed to ask for approval, since all he was there fore was providing the aircraft for the raid.

[jimbotosome]

Originally Posted by ham and jam,Sep 6 2005, 08:50 AM

A few points, the link and article is ok but its your interpretation of it I see wrong Jimbo.

Wouldn’t be the first time I was wrong about something. Probably won’t be the last.

Originally Posted by ham and jam,Sep 6 2005, 08:50 AM

Where in the article does it say or suggest that the bombing of Caen saved Monty 'and the gang'? This SS division im assuming is the 12th SS as is mentioned in the bit you quoted above. When they were put into line with the idea of driving the British and Canadians back into the sea, they were not bombed by the heavies, they were attacked by fighter bombers using 'cab ranks' nothing to do with 'heavies'. There was no chance anyway that they could of thrown them back into the sea by the time the 21st and 12th SS were ready to attack, we had built up sufficient forces to repel their attack. As it happen's when Meyers attack went in the Canadians were also attacking and so this 'dangerous drive was stopped'.

So by this, am I to assume that SHAEF and Monty were aware that the Germans were not in Caen and bombed it for the heck of it? I’m not trying to bait you, I am simply trying to figure out what you mean here.

Originally Posted by ham and jam,Sep 6 2005, 08:50 AM

Where does it say that in the article, and if it does not where did you get this from?
Besides, Montgomery was in charge of ground forces, yours and ours and I cant see it would have been Ike who ordered it. Ive never read Ike ordering Caen to be levelled. But please correct me if you have the evidence.

The part about the panzer movements I got from a documentary.

Monty was under Ike. Ike was the Supreme Allied Commander. Monty insisted Bradley be under him. It was agreed upon to appease Monty but just for the invasion. Monty was always under Ike.

Originally Posted by ham and jam,Sep 6 2005, 08:50 AM

I think I must be missing something as I did not get that from the article Jimbo, or is that your view?

Had Caen been reinforced with more armor, then the British and Canadians could not have withstood. Surely you don't think you could have fought your way off the beaches and through Caen facing the entire German armor in France which was up the coast do you? At the time SHAEF was not aware that the Calias invasion ruse was as effective as it was. It was two weeks before Hitler finally accepted that Overlord was not a feign. Bradley said that all the Germans would have to do is count the divisions and see that there could be no additional invasion. If they had figured this out, then all the armor guarding Calias and points up the channel would can come down on Caen. This is what I mean by the strategy of something not being visible to people on the ground.

Originally Posted by ham and jam,Sep 6 2005, 08:50 AM

Actually Monty had NOTHING to do with Patton being stopped, it was Bradley who ordered Patton to halt, but as usual Monty gets the blame.

You are partially correct. In Bradley’s book states that he was forced to stop Patton. The reason is so that he didn’t overrun the British lines. Monty had boasted that he would close the gap. He didn’t do it in time. Patton could have by sending Haislip and XV into the gap and was chomping at the bit to do it. Bradley and Patton both wanted to close the gap. That’s the way Bradley describes it in “A Soldier’s Story”. I take Bradley as a very sincere and humble person. I don't take him as someone that would seek a scapegoat for his failings. In "War As I Knew It" Patton said the same thing. Why should I doubt these men?

Originally Posted by ham and jam,Sep 6 2005, 08:50 AM

Yep it was the old limey farts fault as usual.

You know, I saw a reference the other day to Monty’s bragging that he could close the gap. If I assume he was sincere, then he failed. If I assume he as not sincere then he deceived Bradley that he could. Either way, it didn’t get done. Patton was not the only one angry. So was Brad. If you don't believe Monty bragged he could close the gap, I am sure I can find his words quoted by another source. I have never heard anyone question Monty saying that. That probably sounds as astonishing to me as when I said "Eighth bombed Caen" did to you.

Originally Posted by ham and jam,Sep 6 2005, 08:50 AM

I disagree, what the article says to me is that the bombing made Rommel think twice about reinforcing the 12th SS not the damage they caused them, where does it say that the bombing blocked or stopped 12SS from using the city of Caen? Also the 12th SS Hitler Jugend were fighting the Canadians at Carpiquet, do you know wher abouts this airfield is on a map? not inside the city but outside to the West, 12th SS could be reinforced by other roads. What stopped Rommel was that the 12th SS who were dug in round the airfield were being wiped out, by heavies, fighter bombers, naval artillery and field artillery.

Again, if you have a reason why you believe Caen was bombed, then let’s hear it. The only explanation I have heard was the one I quoted. It came from a documentary.

Originally Posted by ham and jam,Sep 6 2005, 08:50 AM

Dont think Brian said that, just in certain operations, the only time I recall the US bombing in our sector was before Goodwood kicked off and they used HE so as not to crater, but then again they missed the target anyway.

Brian (I guess that’s sapper’s real name?) stated that the Eighth was not even in the ETO. I believe he meant no in the post D-Day ground support operations, which was also incorrect as well. It’s not that that matters, I really am not anal, my illustration was simply that that’s what it feels like for someone to hawk on precisely what you say and state that not one word was true. I know Brian understood that Eighth did bomb Germany. But, pouncing on a detail and dismissing every part of it because a fact is wrong is exactly was I was doing to illustrate his doing it to me. I wasn't offended, just being creatively poignant.

Originally Posted by ham and jam,Sep 6 2005, 08:50 AM

Where does he say the 8th never bombed in the ETO? if you read a bit further down, Brian mentions the US bombing during Goodwood
Not an Us Eighth airforce plane anywhere. beleive me! They had nothing to do with this operation or this theatre of war. As to your SS panzer Division laying in wait in Caen? never existed mate, beleive me!

They might not have been in this operation (of which I was hammer for and fairly so) but that at least was more accurate than saying the Eighth was not in the “entire theatre” (ETO).

Originally Posted by ham and jam,Sep 6 2005, 08:50 AM

Your going on about what 8th airforce did and didnt do, who is disputing it? certainly not Brian

Yes, Brian did. But my point, which was the point of this subject of this thread was that Eisenhower had developed a disliking to strategic bombing because he couldn't stomach the thought of friendly losses. He had to be talked into “Totalize” because of the bad experiences with “Cobra”. The good experiences in “goodwood” had left Monty and Bomber Command believing that they could bomb without the casualties of “Cobra”. Totalize indicated otherwise. That's how it ties in together.

Originally Posted by ham and jam,Sep 6 2005, 08:50 AM

Have you never heard of flanks? both flanks were strongly held by formidable strong points. This statement shows me how unread you are on the battle for Caen, and that you have fallen hook line stinker for all the Hollywood rubbish out there.

The boasts about Monty being having to “detoothed” the Panzers was a little suspect. It was Hitler’s obstinacy that kept the Panzers up the channel coast at bay (thank God!). Either, you are trivializing the capability German armor, or you are exaggerating the capabilities of Monty. If Caen was but a little hole in the German lines (having stout flanks as you infer), then A) why bomb it, bomb the flanks instead? and why say the Panzers were out of action? You guys might be right but you make a poor case for it.

Originally Posted by ham and jam,Sep 6 2005, 08:50 AM

Theres no if, 2nd army did have 90% of the Panzers, question for you, why did Bradley take so long in breaking out? when he hardly had any armour or 88's to face?

Breaking out of Carentan? The bocages? Cherbourg? What specifically are you referring to?

Originally Posted by ham and jam,Sep 6 2005, 08:50 AM

Where does it say it was needed? certainly not in the article, no single bombardment had the slightest difference on the outcome of the Normandy campaign

Monty says it by the fact he requested Caen be bombed. Again, you fellows realize that you are essentially inferring that Caen was bombed, “just for the heck of it”. That’s a pretty egregious charge against Monty, Ike and Harris.


[quote=ham and jam,Sep 6 2005, 08:50 AM]
[[quote]]Is it possible, you don’t know of these because they were destroyed before you folks got there or maybe they were indeed on the outskirts of Caen destroyed where they would have been redirected?[/

]
thats just laughable, so 2nd army saw no tanks because they were all destroyed en route to the front?

I don’t know Andy, it was obviously conjecture because it a rhetorical question.

If I had done what you guys had done, I would be proud Andy and Brain. You boys put it on the line. People like me are awed by people like you. You really don’t need to blast the efforts of the Americans. They put it on the line too. When you detract from them, it detracts from you. When you honor them it honors you. With allies, it can only be said that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. It had been just you, or if it had been just the Americans, then I would probably be speaking German now. But because it was both of you, the dreams of a cruel dictator came crashing down and fell into a million pieces in 1945. What personal glory could exceed that? What lack of proper credit could ever take it away? Andy, I don’t think Hollywood was or will ever be capable of taking that away from you.

Then again, it is because of my admiration for your types that I am even interested in that war. Without this appreciation, we are simply discussing triva. I don’t believe all of your opinions, of the events that happened, are necessarily true, but they are certainly true to you so I do appreciate hearing them. It does give me a unique perspective. Kudos to the folks that set this forum up as well. They keep your memories alive and get your story told. Anyone who “spends” his time on this forum does so giving the same honor. I believe there are quite a few that tune in, am I right? No, you are not slighted, neither is Monty. The ones that matter know the difference.

God Bless you fellas and the ones who never made it here to “smoke me” for getting a few facts wrong.

[jimbotosome]

Originally posted by morse1001@Sep 7 2005, 12:35 AM
According to proberts biography of Harris, monty asked for it directly. harris would not have needed to ask for approval, since all he was there fore was providing the aircraft for the raid.

Hi Morse,

You may very well be right, but I would think an operation with the import of demolishing a whole city would have to go through SHAEF. To me that transcends merely a tactic. I haven't read that anywhere, it's simply a rationalization. (I think I better start qualifying my statements! )

Jim