Operation Market Garden (The trucks thread)

[sapper]

What higher octane fuel? We only had one petrol..Pool Petrol...all that octane stuff stopped at the outbreak of war. Does anyone really think that we pumped different octanes through "pluto" ?

Imagine this "Stop pumping petrol, empty the pipeline, we want to pump high octane fuel for the Bedford trucks" Meanwhile all the other engines set up for the standard Pool petrol would have ro wait for a week or two while we clear the pipes. Pump and test For Pool again. So stop the war... For this will be a major operation to change the octane, and back again, stop all military operations while we carry this out?
Sapper

[Rich Payne]

I'm on dodgy unreferenced ground here but I had understood that the military MT fuel was a better quality than the civilian "Pool" product.

I'm also a bit puzzled as to why higher octane fuel would cause valve damage - Unleaded can and does and low octane will cause detonation and piston damage.

The worst I have heard of from higher octane fuel is lead fouling on spark plugs.

Anyway, it's a bit rich if the Americans were blaming Bedford. Who owned Bedford anyway ? General Motors surely.

Perhaps a post on a Military vehicle forum might help ?

[sapper]

fact remains... to pump higher octane fuel you would hardly mix it with the standard fuels. The stuff of dreams mate
Sapper

[von Poop]

But this is all missing the point of the quote a bit chaps.
I wasn't looking for any sort of argument especially not with Sapper who's personal testimony is worth, as has been said before, a great deal more than many retrospective 'opinions'.
I entered the quote merely because it illustrates that this '1400' trucks figure has cropped up a few times and possibly relates to possible manufacturing defects, the existence of which would not necesarily filter through to the frontlines due to them being eventually resolved on the supply side, I wasn't arguing for or against there having been a problem, just adding to the possible origins of the story.
As for the fuel octane I know nothing about this but He seems to refer to the entire supply of pool petrol being 'upgraded' (who would notice the change??) at some point rather than any vehicle specific special treatment which would of course be nonsense.
cheers,
Adam.

[airborne medic]

How many trucks were there in the ENTIRE 21st Army Group in September 1944- obviously some were reliable being attached to the front line units but how many were used in moving stores from Normandy to the combat areas?

[sapper]

I am also rather amused at the statement that the pistons had been made but had become unusable while on the shelf. That’s good for a laugh. Seriously! How would alli pistons somehow change while waiting to be used? Admittedly all metals deteriate with time, Gold the “Noble metal” being for all intents and purposes free from that. But in this case we are talking about thousands of years!


As a lifetime Engineer. I am quite aware of all areas of production. The only way that "alli" will deteriate is if it oxidises! Through salt, or prolonged exposure to weather. Being the pistons (Come to that any engineered component) would be greased up for storage, (standard army practice) I completely fail to see how a high precision component machined to tight tolerances of about +-.001 could change by sitting on the shelf?
To me it sounds ridiculous, and the more that comes out, the dafter the story becomes it seems to me.
Sapper.
Life long skilled engineer.

Atomic Energy Authority
Research and Experimental Technician.

Dept of Employment
Engineering Training Officer.

[sapper]

I have read of a problem with wartime motorcycle pistons (BSA I think) which were within size tolerance at manufacture but unusable after shelf storage.

The problem was traced to poor quality recycled alloy. (The aircraft manufacturers got the new stuff and the automotive industry had to use the handed-in saucepans. )



Contrary to popular beleif, All those railings, and pots and pans, were never used for war production, They would have had to go through a process that would never bring it back to the Lloyds metals standards.

Something else I know a lot about, Having once machined a large block of pure 99,99% gold and having to verify metals that would enter radio active areas.

let me ask you this would you build a Spitfire from anything but the best. being they cost a fortune to make? pardon me if I sound short..It is not meant.
Sapper

[plant-pilot]

Just a small question Sapper, have you never experienced an occasion where a whole production batch of components has either been manufactured with errors or assembled incorrectly? These errors should be found during 'quality controls' but sometimes, as has been seen in modern times by the many 'manufacturers recalls', they are not.

Wartime production is a high stress high pressure affair. Output is everything as the war effort is relying on it. Errors did happen and were not always caught. It's hard to keep that level of output up and errors not to occur.

Again, not saying it did happen, but I am saying that it is not as beyond the realms of possiblility as your comments make it seem.

[von Poop]

I knew a man who used to dive in the solent, he said (this is ten years ago) there were still piles of old railings and scrap to be seen where they just dumped 'em into the sea.
I think Rikp's earlier post is of significance, it's simply amazing the volume and range that was produced under such harsh conditions (and bombing!) by the home factories at a time when a thousand different priorities were screaming out for scarce raw materials.

[sapper]

Read this for it important...Chester Wilmot in his 1952 book The Struggle for Europe stated that (just before Op Market Garden 1400 British 3-ton trucks were off the road due to faulty pistons which led to supply problems for OMG). This comment is repeated in Ryan -A Bridge Too Far and Horne - Montgomery The Lonely Leader. Someone I know wrote to Horne questioning this and got a reply stating that he wasn't sure where this piece of information came from! I personally wouldn't be happy putting a fact in a book without being 100% happy with it.

Please note "Off the road" that directly states that 1400 trucks were broken down and off the road not being reissued but OFF THE ROAD! All 1400 of them,

Yes it is always posible to get a faulty batch where inspection has not been up to standards. But this has nothing to do with it, and the British army, if nothing else is thorough in their inspections.
Sapper