What did the waffen ss do?

[von Poop]

Originally Posted by sapper

Just a word about the Waffen SS. If I captured a German Soldier, a young man like myself. I would light a cigarette, stick in his mouth, hands on head, and send him back on his own. A very happy POW puffing away happily on his cigarette, as he made his way back.

But the SS? Surly, arrogant, and completely untrustworthy. It was rumoured that on several occasions they would raise the white flag of surrender, and when you moved forward to accept their surrender, another would pop up and cut the British down with a burst of machine gun fire.

They certainly murdered our men taken prisoner in cold and calculated way. That was the 12th SS Panzer Hitler Jugend...

They paid a price for it! Let me ask this? Would you take a prisoner knowing what they had done to your own men? Would you really? Nah! Specially as the war in Normandy was bitterly fought, in front of Caen, where we took on the SS Panzers to keep them away from the American front.

The whole area always had the smell of death around, It never went away till we went down to the USA sector near Vire.
SS? Murderers!
Sapper

Great stuff.
Did you and your comrades feel the same way towards the 'Grossdeutschland', 'Herman Goring' or the other 'elite' German Units that wore the Cuffbands Sapper?


(Oh Yes, and hello there 'Dave--' thread starter, welcome to the site)

[51highland]

Heusden 1944; "The next building to be liberated was being held by Men in SS garb. As we closed on them the survivors emerged "Nicht Schissen" and "Kamerad". Nicht Schissen my arse, we shot them without a second thought".

From the memoires of 2934077 Sgt George Sands MM. 5th Queens Own Cameron Highlanders.

[51highland]

[quote=Von Poop]Great stuff.
Did you and your comrades feel the same way towards the 'Grossdeutschland', 'Herman Goring' or the other 'elite' German Units that wore the Cuffbands Sapper?

Perhaps this might be an answer; Reichswald Forest 10th Feb 1945. "At one point we ran out of ammo, we finished off positions, mainly manned by 7th Parachute Division, attacking and killing the occupants with our trenching tools"

And in response to Sappers "SS, Murderers"
Same battle; "3 Germans came in one wounded being supported by 2 others, wearing SS Uniforms, under a white flag. I sent one of my boys to bring them in. When he reached them the wounded one stood up and shot my boy between the eyes. He was just 18 years of age. We emptied our guns into them. We would be reluctant to honour a white flag again".
Memoires of 2934077 Sgt George Sands MM. 5th Queens Own Cameron Highlanders.

[spidge]

[quote]

Originally Posted by 51highland

Similar stories with the Aussies in New Guinea. Early days they went to help Japanese soldiers that were wounded, turned them over and a grenade would go off...........they didn't assist much after that.

[plant-pilot]

Originally Posted by 51highland

Heusden 1944; "The next building to be liberated was being held by Men in SS garb. As we closed on them the survivors emerged "Nicht Schissen" and "Kamerad". Nicht Schissen my arse, we shot them without a second thought".

From the memoires of 2934077 Sgt George Sands MM. 5th Queens Own Cameron Highlanders.

Originally Posted by 51highland

Same battle; "3 Germans came in one wounded being supported by 2 others, wearing SS Uniforms, under a white flag. I sent one of my boys to bring them in. When he reached them the wounded one stood up and shot my boy between the eyes. He was just 18 years of age. We emptied our guns into them. We would be reluctant to honour a white flag again".
Memoires of 2934077 Sgt George Sands MM. 5th Queens Own Cameron Highlanders.

The first case, even if it occured after the other one, seems to be on very dodgy ground. Enemy soldiers having made a visible attempt to to indicate a wish to give up, shot without a thought. I don't really care what went on before, you can't shoot some unarmed soldiers dead just because elsewhere similar soldiers had used a trick. That is a clear breach of LoAC, no questions, no ifs or buts.

The second case, seems to be a clear breech of LoAC on the German's part. At least it would if it was a logical thing to do. Walk towards your enemy with three men in order to kill one man and knowing that all three of you would die on the spot. maybe the injured one thought he wasn't going to make it and he unilaterally decided to take one last British Soldier? That doesn't meant that the other two were part of it even if they did pay with their lives. They would have died legally though as the flag of truce was abused and the British had no idea if it was one or all three. If anything the one German was guilty of murder of the poor British soldier and manslaughter of his two commrads.

If that is how the event happened, it is still no reason to ignore LoAC in concequent cases. More caution taken, yes. But to kill solders who are trying to surrender out of hand is disgraceful and should never be accepted. You cannot condemn the actions of the SS when you are doing the same yourself.

[51highland]

"If there is a God waiting to receive me at the end of my days, I think he will find it difficult to forgive me for some of the things I have done or been party too. My only excuse is that I was like a crazed animal, with all the death and destruction and the mutilation of young men around me.
I confess to having killed unarmed men, men who were trying to surrender, but seeing those bodies of the women and children, blown up and burned in the building in Heusden, me and my comrades totally lost control. Who knows we may have done the free world a favour.
When you discover the bodies of your comrades, face down with hands tied behind them with barbed wire, shot through the back of the head or their throats cut, you lose any and all morals.
Seeing a young lad, shot between the eyes, when he is going to the aid of a supposedly wounded man carrying a white flag, it totally destroys your faith in your fellow man.
I have....................".
The above are my fathers thoughts.
The incident in Heusden occurred (6th November 1944) about a week after 5th Camerons had entered SS Kamp Vught with all its atrocities.
The wounded man occurred in the Reichswald Forest battle February 1945.

I for one cannot imagine how the people on the spot were feeling and I defy anyone who has not lived on their nerve ends in battle from October 1942 to end of hostilities in 1945 to understand it either.

It is easy to say Disgraceful, but in the heat of battle all reasoning disappears.

[sapper]

There is no doubt these men were arrogant pigs and deserved to be treated like pigs. Yes we felt the same about them.
To trot out the political correctness Plant_Pilot where the SS are concerned is to say the least, unfortunate.

Rather like trying to placate a raging and ferocious beast that is killing right left and centre. with a biscuit..."Here doggy... theres a good boy!" only to see your hand bitten off at the wrist.

You shoot mad dogs, before they bite your head off. Not politically correct....but sensible..that is if you wish to stay alive?
Sapper

[Gage]

Originally Posted by sapper

There is no doubt these men were arrogant pigs and deserved to be treated like pigs. Yes we felt the same about them.
To trot out the political correctness Plant_Pilot where the SS are concerned is to say the least, unfortunate.

Rather like trying to placate a raging and ferocious beast that is killing right left and centre. with a biscuit..."Here doggy... theres a good boy!" only to see your hand bitten off at the wrist.

You shoot mad dogs, before they bite your head off. Not politically correct....but sensible..that is if you wish to stay alive?
Sapper

It's a hard situation to judge, never having been in it. Seeing all that underhandedness and wickedness dealt out. If I wanted to survive and go home then I would do whatever it took. Total war is what it says. If it was them or me then.....I would worry about it later when I was safely home.

[plant-pilot]

I've been in situations where I've been face to face with people that we knew were responsible for some horrific acts of murder, of soldiers, and civilians, and who could be responsible for more tomorrow or next week or next month. Breaking the rules would have been a very real option, probably would have saved lives, but made us as bad as them and outside the law.

The LoAC is there to protect everyone. If you ignore it "because they did" what's to say they are only ignoring it because you are. There is no protection for anyone any more. You can no longer expect to be allowed to live if you try to surrender.

I know it's not all black & white, but what is more black and white than killing someone who is offering no resistance and trying to surrender. No better than cold blooded murder. And I do understand the difficulties of LoAC and that feelings run high, and even defended the use of enemy clothing as a diguise recently, but can anyone condone the killing of a soldier that has decided the game is up and offered himself on the mercy of the victors? From there it's a slippery slope to saying that the killing of civilians is okay and that the final solution was justified.

[jimbotosome]

As they say, there is no smoke without a fire. Like sapper and his cigarette story, thats a pretty consistent thing. Patton described his encounters with captured German generals. With the Wermackt he treated them with a certain honor, given them preferential treatment, certain priviledges and spoke to them honorable as soldiers. Contrast that with captured SS generals that were brought before him (which was rare because they shot themselves like cowards). He treated them with great disdain and actually verbally and mentally abused them especially since they were in the "I was just doing my job and following orders" mode.

I was reading a book by a US B-17 pilot in the 8th and he said that it was pretty much a known thing that if you were a bomber crew shot down over Germany and were captured or delivered to the Wermackt, then you were treated well. But if the SS came upon you they would shoot you where you stood, as they gave no quarter and were simply heartless.

One only needs to think about the Malmedy situation where the 80 or so soldiers with their hands on their head where shot in the back by SS. I don't think all SS were neccessarily evil b******s but like I said, there has to be substance to the many claims, and stated "there is no smoke without a fire".

I believe sapper's right. Though most of us would say "I would never do such and such", the fact is until you see your buddy die needlessly and heartlessly from a sleezebag trick of a dog, you simply don't know what you would do.

It is much easire being a soldier in a retrospective and imaginative battle field than the real thing, just as flying a plane on a flight simulator is different than actually flying one. There is no way to simulate or visualize the thoughts, excitement, sensations, fears, etc of actually being there. War is likewise probably nothing at all like the video game where as sapper said the smell of death is actually around you.

I am compelled to believe that he is right and even in his claim of the rest of us, there are going to be less and less SS taken prisoner as the war and the rumors of dishonorable acts began to accumulate. It is best not to fill someone with rage and indignancy who might be holding a weapon on you at some time, especially a kid which most soldiers were.

Wermackt by and large were patriots, SS trained animals. You shoot a mad dog, you have to. It's instinct, not the lack of mercy or else you would have shot Wermackt as well, which did not often happen. JMHO