British soldiers in Shanghai, c. 1927-1928

China Hand · 31-12-2008, 05:33 AM

Dear all, especially Verrieres

I received today a packet of photos of China I'd ordered from ebay. It includes a few of British soldiers in Shanghai, c. 1927-1928, i.e. at the time the city's garrison was reinforced by what was called the Shanghai Defence Force (will add more details on this later, see also Verrieres earlier post) because of concerns arising from fighting nearby between various Chinese forces.

I do not know the unit here, although it might be the Bedfordshire Regiment, who were there at the time, I believe, see one of the captions for more speculation. I believe most of the shots of the guys were taken at Jessfield Road Barracks. Not many names, unfortunately, but all very "atmospheric"...

Captions/comments are drawn from some comments on back of the snapshots and my own knowledge. Click for bigger versions (hope I have done this right !).

99008535.jpg Simply marked "self", so I assume this is the lad who took the photos.

99008529.jpg Again, "self". Shooting cups ? This and the next one, and another, show the lads wearing a sports shirt marked XVI...I speculate, but might this be because they are Bedfordshire Regiment, formerly 16th Foot ???

99008528.jpg Similar

99008530.jpg Again, "self"

99008532.jpg "Self keeping warm"...again, that winter kit similar to DLI in Verrieres previous thread, see http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/prewar/...tml#post165548

99008533.jpg Same again

99008536.jpg One of the few with a name..."Herbert". Again, the XVI on his shirt.

99008534.jpg Another name..."Jock"...at a wild guess, someone from north of the border !

99008527.jpg NOT Shanghai, it says "a section of D Coy, Malta", but included for faces...and maybe hint that our photographer might have been D Company...the Beds were, I think, in Malta in 1926, there are a few pics of Malta in the package too

99008526.jpg Not sure if this in Shanghai, but suspect it is given style of parasols...again posted for faces

99008531.jpg Again, sadly no names

99008542.jpg Love this one, labelled "Pte Wun Long, Regimental Mascot"...

99008514.jpg Some Shanghai scenes, this is the famous Garden Bridge, at North End of the Bund, over Suzhou Creek to Hongkou District...often featured in pics of the 1932-1937 period as it was the boundary between the International Settlement and the Japanese controlled area...compare with the photo in Verrieres thread http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/prewar/...tml#post165608...the building in far right corner was (and still is) the Russian Consulate

99008500.jpg Labelled "view from roof of New World South"...looking west I think....New World was a Shanghai entertainment centre in the International Settlement, with a bit of a reputation

say no more...

99008513.jpg Labelled "Thibet Road", i.e. Tibet Road, still same name...I think I recognise the building, can't recall what it was in 1927
but it is still used by the, ah, local forces...

Welcome comments, I may add more info later...

The other 50 or so snapshots in the packet are mostly scenes of China, rural and urban, including some from beyond Shanghai,...quite interesting in themselves to a China buff, not of military interest as such but happy to post the better ones if folks are interested.

Owen · 31-12-2008, 09:41 AM

Just found this.
BRITISH MILITARY OPERATIONS 1919-1939

SHANGHAI 1927
In 1927, the outbreak of conflict between nationalists and communists in China created international concern about the safety of the large European population in Shanghai. Together with Japan, the United States, France and Italy, Britain dispatched a substantial force from both Britain, Malta and India. After 1928 this force was reduced gradually but British troops did not finally leave Shanghai until 1939.
Division HQ[Major General Duncan]
HQ 13 Infantry Brigade–from Catterick
HQ 14 Infantry Brigade –from Lichfield
HQ 9 Indian Infantry Brigade –from India
5 Armoured Car Company, Royal Tank Corps
HQ 1 Brigade RHA
16 Medium Battery RA
11, 80 Field Batteries RA
12, 15, 20, 21 Pack Batteries RA
10 Company, Madras Sappers & Miners
Divisional Signals
2 Bn Coldstream Guards
1 Bn Devonshire Regiment
2 Bn Suffolk Regiment -ex Gibraltar
1 Bn Bedfordshire & Hertfordshire Regiment -ex Malta
2 Bn Gloucestershire Regiment –ex India
1 Bn Border Regiment
2 Bn Border Regiment -ex Malta
2 Bn Durham Light Infantry –ex India
1 Bn Green Howards
1 Bn Middlesex Regiment
12 Royal Marine Battalion
4 Bn 1st Punjab Regiment
3 Bn 14th Punjab Regiment
later reinforcements during 1927-
2 Bn Scots Guards
1 Bn Queens Regiment
2 Bn Northamptonshire Regiment
2 Bn Welch Regiment
Royal Air Force-
1 Squadron
later- 2 Squadron

China Hand · 31-12-2008, 10:09 AM

Ah ha

there's the Beds...could be them, it seems..although it is pure speculation based on the XVI !

Warlord · 05-01-2009, 09:31 PM

Any pics on the RN´s Yangtze gunboats?

China Hand · 06-01-2009, 12:32 AM

Funny you should ask

...I have an interest in this topic...although focused on pre-WW1 as I have some letters from a gunboat skipper from 1911 that I might try and write up and publish sometime...

I asked about HMS Widgeon (the vessel in question) a few days ago and several kind souls posted replies here http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/war-sea...tml#post165631

Best single place for gunboat stuff, with ton of pics, is H.M.S. Falcon - Royal Navy Gunboats in China and the Far East

Warlord · 06-01-2009, 04:00 PM

Thanks for the link, mate. Interesting stuff.

von Poop · 06-01-2009, 04:05 PM

Missed this thread, nice shots CH.

Gerard · 06-01-2009, 04:24 PM

If you got a posting to a place like Shanghai or Singapore pre-war was it seen as a good place to go or a backwater as a posting? Often wondered what soldiers thought of a posting to india as opposed to say Egypt or at home even. Great thread CH!

Warlord · 06-01-2009, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gotthard Heinrici

If you got a posting to a place like Shanghai or Singapore pre-war was it seen as a good place to go or a backwater as a posting? Often wondered what soldiers thought of a posting to india as opposed to say Egypt or at home even. Great thread CH!

I would say that with the aura of glamour, sofistication and mystery that turn of the century international settlements had, in far away places like Tangiers, Peking or Shanghai, being posted there would have been considered, if not a privilege, at least a shot at adventure. The 4th Marines website, chinamarines.com, does mention a posting in Shanghai as good stuff.

What do yo think, CH? You´re "Our Man in the Far East" (Sorry for the lack of originality, Smudger

)

China Hand · 06-01-2009, 06:03 PM

Ah well.. one needs a book to answer that one...and luckily...there is one...'Sin City', by Ralph Shaw, published c1973, ISBN of my 1986 edition is 0708830811..sadly none currently on Abebooks...semi-fictional/factual account of pre-WW2 Shanghai by British lad who went out in 1937 as a RASC soldier, and left a little later to join a newspaper in the city as a journalist (he had been such in UK)...

I quote from Chapter 2..."Shanghai was a cushy berth, dead easy compared to Aldershot and Bulford. For the first time in my life I had a manservant, or rather, I shared his services with others who lived with me in a barrack room at the British Military Hospital in downtown Shanghai, only a few hundred yards from the Bund waterfront...

"The 'room boy' took over the chores that we did ourselves back in Blighty - making the beds, 'bumping' the floor, polishing our buttons, cap badges, blancoing our belts, cleaning our boots and so on. So we lived like little tin gods..."

...and, if the book is to be believed, spent a fair amount of time, er, fraternising with the locals...

So, apart from the minor irritation that the Japanese were engaged in a certain amount of rather violent urban regeneration a few blocks north, it was a dawdle...

I must mention this one to Verrieres, lotsa mentions of 1 DLI...funny, he travelled out to Shanghai in the 'Dilwara' with the same batch of Durhams that he mentions here http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/prewar/...tml#post165888

31-12-2008, 05:33 AM	#1 (permalink)
China Hand No Longer A Forum Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 358	British soldiers in Shanghai, c. 1927-1928 Dear all, especially Verrieres I received today a packet of photos of China I'd ordered from ebay. It includes a few of British soldiers in Shanghai, c. 1927-1928, i.e. at the time the city's garrison was reinforced by what was called the Shanghai Defence Force (will add more details on this later, see also Verrieres earlier post) because of concerns arising from fighting nearby between various Chinese forces. I do not know the unit here, although it might be the Bedfordshire Regiment, who were there at the time, I believe, see one of the captions for more speculation. I believe most of the shots of the guys were taken at Jessfield Road Barracks. Not many names, unfortunately, but all very "atmospheric"... Captions/comments are drawn from some comments on back of the snapshots and my own knowledge. Click for bigger versions (hope I have done this right !). 99008535.jpg Simply marked "self", so I assume this is the lad who took the photos. 99008529.jpg Again, "self". Shooting cups ? This and the next one, and another, show the lads wearing a sports shirt marked XVI...I speculate, but might this be because they are Bedfordshire Regiment, formerly 16th Foot ??? 99008528.jpg Similar 99008530.jpg Again, "self" 99008532.jpg "Self keeping warm"...again, that winter kit similar to DLI in Verrieres previous thread, see http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/prewar/...tml#post165548 99008533.jpg Same again 99008536.jpg One of the few with a name..."Herbert". Again, the XVI on his shirt. 99008534.jpg Another name..."Jock"...at a wild guess, someone from north of the border ! 99008527.jpg NOT Shanghai, it says "a section of D Coy, Malta", but included for faces...and maybe hint that our photographer might have been D Company...the Beds were, I think, in Malta in 1926, there are a few pics of Malta in the package too 99008526.jpg Not sure if this in Shanghai, but suspect it is given style of parasols...again posted for faces 99008531.jpg Again, sadly no names 99008542.jpg Love this one, labelled "Pte Wun Long, Regimental Mascot"... 99008514.jpg Some Shanghai scenes, this is the famous Garden Bridge, at North End of the Bund, over Suzhou Creek to Hongkou District...often featured in pics of the 1932-1937 period as it was the boundary between the International Settlement and the Japanese controlled area...compare with the photo in Verrieres thread http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/prewar/...tml#post165608...the building in far right corner was (and still is) the Russian Consulate 99008500.jpg Labelled "view from roof of New World South"...looking west I think....New World was a Shanghai entertainment centre in the International Settlement, with a bit of a reputation say no more... 99008513.jpg Labelled "Thibet Road", i.e. Tibet Road, still same name...I think I recognise the building, can't recall what it was in 1927 but it is still used by the, ah, local forces... Welcome comments, I may add more info later... The other 50 or so snapshots in the packet are mostly scenes of China, rural and urban, including some from beyond Shanghai,...quite interesting in themselves to a China buff, not of military interest as such but happy to post the better ones if folks are interested. Last edited by China Hand; 31-12-2008 at 06:10 AM.

05-01-2009, 09:31 PM	#4 (permalink)
Warlord Veteran wannabe Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: The Land of Eternal Spring Posts: 1,279	Any pics on the RN´s Yangtze gunboats? __________________ If I go forward, follow me; if I stop, hurry me; if I retreat, kill me. Guatemalan special forces motto Picture shows an Israeli Avia downing an Egyptian Spitfire in ´48. Guatemala gave the deciding vote at the UN that year for Israel to become a nation.

06-01-2009, 04:00 PM	#6 (permalink)
Warlord Veteran wannabe Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: The Land of Eternal Spring Posts: 1,279	Thanks for the link, mate. Interesting stuff. __________________ If I go forward, follow me; if I stop, hurry me; if I retreat, kill me. Guatemalan special forces motto Picture shows an Israeli Avia downing an Egyptian Spitfire in ´48. Guatemala gave the deciding vote at the UN that year for Israel to become a nation.

06-01-2009, 04:05 PM	#7 (permalink)
von Poop Adaministrator Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: The Abbey of Thelema Posts: 10,369	Missed this thread, nice shots CH. __________________ Cake?

06-01-2009, 04:24 PM	#8 (permalink)
Gerard Seelow/Prora Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 5,191	If you got a posting to a place like Shanghai or Singapore pre-war was it seen as a good place to go or a backwater as a posting? Often wondered what soldiers thought of a posting to india as opposed to say Egypt or at home even. Great thread CH! __________________ *"The Eastern front is like a house of cards. If the front is broken through at one point all the rest will collapse."* - General Heinz Guderian Lead Singer with PROUDFOOT

31-12-2008, 09:41 AM	#2 (permalink)
Owen Admin's Lackey Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Under the stairs Posts: 15,773	Just found this. BRITISH MILITARY OPERATIONS 1919-1939 SHANGHAI 1927 In 1927, the outbreak of conflict between nationalists and communists in China created international concern about the safety of the large European population in Shanghai. Together with Japan, the United States, France and Italy, Britain dispatched a substantial force from both Britain, Malta and India. After 1928 this force was reduced gradually but British troops did not finally leave Shanghai until 1939. Division HQ[Major General Duncan] HQ 13 Infantry Brigade–from Catterick HQ 14 Infantry Brigade –from Lichfield HQ 9 Indian Infantry Brigade –from India 5 Armoured Car Company, Royal Tank Corps HQ 1 Brigade RHA 16 Medium Battery RA 11, 80 Field Batteries RA 12, 15, 20, 21 Pack Batteries RA 10 Company, Madras Sappers & Miners Divisional Signals 2 Bn Coldstream Guards 1 Bn Devonshire Regiment 2 Bn Suffolk Regiment -ex Gibraltar 1 Bn Bedfordshire & Hertfordshire Regiment -ex Malta 2 Bn Gloucestershire Regiment –ex India 1 Bn Border Regiment 2 Bn Border Regiment -ex Malta 2 Bn Durham Light Infantry –ex India 1 Bn Green Howards 1 Bn Middlesex Regiment 12 Royal Marine Battalion 4 Bn 1st Punjab Regiment 3 Bn 14th Punjab Regiment later reinforcements during 1927- 2 Bn Scots Guards 1 Bn Queens Regiment 2 Bn Northamptonshire Regiment 2 Bn Welch Regiment Royal Air Force- 1 Squadron later- 2 Squadron

31-12-2008, 10:09 AM	#3 (permalink)
China Hand No Longer A Forum Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 358	Ah ha there's the Beds...could be them, it seems..although it is pure speculation based on the XVI !

06-01-2009, 12:32 AM	#5 (permalink)
China Hand No Longer A Forum Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 358	Funny you should ask ...I have an interest in this topic...although focused on pre-WW1 as I have some letters from a gunboat skipper from 1911 that I might try and write up and publish sometime... I asked about HMS Widgeon (the vessel in question) a few days ago and several kind souls posted replies here http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/war-sea...tml#post165631 Best single place for gunboat stuff, with ton of pics, is H.M.S. Falcon - Royal Navy Gunboats in China and the Far East

06-01-2009, 06:03 PM	#10 (permalink)
China Hand No Longer A Forum Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 358	Ah well.. one needs a book to answer that one...and luckily...there is one...'Sin City', by Ralph Shaw, published c1973, ISBN of my 1986 edition is 0708830811..sadly none currently on Abebooks...semi-fictional/factual account of pre-WW2 Shanghai by British lad who went out in 1937 as a RASC soldier, and left a little later to join a newspaper in the city as a journalist (he had been such in UK)... I quote from Chapter 2..."Shanghai was a cushy berth, dead easy compared to Aldershot and Bulford. For the first time in my life I had a manservant, or rather, I shared his services with others who lived with me in a barrack room at the British Military Hospital in downtown Shanghai, only a few hundred yards from the Bund waterfront... "The 'room boy' took over the chores that we did ourselves back in Blighty - making the beds, 'bumping' the floor, polishing our buttons, cap badges, blancoing our belts, cleaning our boots and so on. So we lived like little tin gods..." ...and, if the book is to be believed, spent a fair amount of time, er, fraternising with the locals... So, apart from the minor irritation that the Japanese were engaged in a certain amount of rather violent urban regeneration a few blocks north, it was a dawdle... I must mention this one to Verrieres, lotsa mentions of 1 DLI...funny, he travelled out to Shanghai in the 'Dilwara' with the same batch of Durhams that he mentions here http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/prewar/...tml#post165888 Last edited by China Hand; 06-01-2009 at 06:09 PM.

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