Am I bovvered?

[Owen]

This is just my own twopennoth but I wondered if you'd considered annotating your story -explaining how your present-day research has changed your understanding of the situation as you recorded it at the time - rather than simply correcting it?

Good point from the BBC chap.
As has been said before, it is interesting to see difference in what you thought happened from memory as to what did from Official records.
Compared to some bloomers from history , Ron, your's in fairly minor.
I rememeber once reading that an Historian said to a Great War Veteran,
"Just because you were there doesn't mean you know what was going on."
Although that sounds like a put down I can see what the Historian was trying to say.

I can't even remember the names of villages & towns I was in 20 odd years ago in Germany & Denmark.

[Gotthard Heinrici]

That seems a reasonable response Ron, but very well put nonetheless and I think you are right in wanting to correct it.

Tom I'm not quite sure what you mean - perhaps you might elaborate further?

[Ron Goldstein]

Hi all

You might wish to see the current correspondence at:

BBC - MESSAGE BOARDS - History - For the attention of any BBC moderators - Conversation

Ron

[Owen]

Ron,
Now should Peter G try and get this quote altered as it isn't quite correct either.
BBC - WW2 People's War - Attack at Salerno and Sighting the Cassino Monastery

The 6th Battalion Grenadier Guards was in the 22nd Guards Brigade

That is not strictly true as in '42 it became 200th Guards Brigade and then renumbered as 201st Guards Motorised Brigade.
22nd Guards Brigade - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The 6th Gren Gds only ever fought as part of 201 Gds Bde never in 22 Gds Bde.
6GG joined 201 Gds Bde in Syria in Oct '42.

A minor point I know but are we bovvered?

[Ron Goldstein]

Originally Posted by Owen

Ron,
Now should Peter G try and get this quote altered as it isn't quite correct either.
BBC - WW2 People's War - Attack at Salerno and Sighting the Cassino Monastery



That is not strictly true as in '42 it became 200th Guards Brigade and then renumbered as 201st Guards Motorised Brigade.
22nd Guards Brigade - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The 6th Gren Gds only ever fought as part of 201 Gds Bde never in 22 Gds Bde.
6GG joined 201 Gds Bde in Syria in Oct '42.

A minor point I know but are we bovvered?

Hi Owen

You may very well be right, but I am a tad puzzled as to why you have initially addressed the query as if it was for me to make a decision.

Am I my "Peter's" keeper ?

For the benefit of others, Peter, quite apart from being a notable contributor to this site, is a valued and long standing friend and more than capable of defending his own wicket.

I shall forthwith bring this matter to his attention

Cheers

Ron

[PeterG]

Originally Posted by Owen

Ron,
Now should Peter G try and get this quote altered as it isn't quite correct either.
BBC - WW2 People's War - Attack at Salerno and Sighting the Cassino Monastery

That is not strictly true as in '42 it became 200th Guards Brigade and then renumbered as 201st Guards Motorised Brigade.
22nd Guards Brigade - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The 6th Gren Gds only ever fought as part of 201 Gds Bde never in 22 Gds Bde.
6GG joined 201 Gds Bde in Syria in Oct '42.

A minor point I know but are we bovvered?

Owen

Ron has drawn my attention to the above. Actually 22 Guards Brigade had five redesignations (the definitive one was that of 20 March 1941, a month after GHQ was formed), but one should not confuse redesignations for tactical or intelligence reasons with brigade titles. If you go to the Wikepedia to the page you referred to you will see that it is headed, correctly, 22nd Guards Brigade. I am sure that if you were to ask any veteran who served in 201st Guards Motor Brigade Group or 201st Guards Motor Brigade he would tell you he was in the 22nd Guards Brigade.

I suppose I could have said, more accurately, '22nd Guards Brigade (redesignated 201st Guards Motor Brigade)' but it's a little late now.

(I have attached the relevant page from the official Orders of Battle - Second World War 1939-45, for which I have a 5 year copyright licence agreement from the Cabinet Office - Her Majesty's Stationery Office to do so.)

Peter

[Owen]

Thanks for showing us that Peter.
So actually it's real name is "22nd Infantry Brigade" as that what it was called in February 41.
As you say all other "names" are just redesignations .

As the original unit was captured and a new one formed surely that has to be called 201st as the original one didn't exist anymore.

Same as the "new" 51st Highland Div was created out of 9th Highland Div.
Nobody refers to that by it's original title.

I've only ever seen the Bde called 201st in anything I've seen, including my shorter Grenadier Guards History.
As to your other point, why would a soldier in 6th Gren Gds refer to it as 22 Gds Bde when to him it was only ever 201st, he wouldn't have know it by it's original title?


I suppose it's not that important in the grand scheme of things but nice to chat about .

[PeterG]

Originally Posted by Owen

Thanks for showing us that Peter.
So actually it's real name is "22nd Infantry Brigade" as that what it was called in February 41.
As you say all other "names" are just redesignations.

Actually Owen it is more complex than that in this case.

As you know, when wore broke out there was only the regular army and the territorials. The regular brigade in Egypt was called The Cairo Brigade under the command of Lt-Col E.G. Earle. On 20 September 1939 The Cairo Brigade was redesignated as 29th Infantry Brigade, but on 3 October it was redesignated again as 22 Infantry Brigade. Then on 2 September 1940 it was redesignated Headquarters Matruh Fortress and ceased to exist as an Infantry Brigade. What was reformed on 11 February 1941 in Egypt was a brigade HQ with the temporary title 22nd Infantry Brigade which on 20 March became the full 22nd Guards Brigade.

It then went through a whole series of redesignations (200th Guards Brigade, 200th Guards Motor Brigade Group, 201st Guards Motor Brigade Group) until its surrender at Tobruk on 20 June 1942, only to be revived in Egypt with the title 201st Guards Motor Brigade, although in fact it was organised as a Brigade Group.

In the official Order of Battle 22 Infantry Brigade has a separate entry (i.e. independent of 22nd Guards Brigade), but if you look up either 200th Guards Brigade or 201st Guards Motor Brigade you are directed to see the O of B of 22nd Guards Brigade. The Wikipedia entry is correctly titled.

Peter

[Owen]

Actually Owen it is more complex than that in this case.

Knowing the British Army, why doesn't that surprise me.