The Divine Wind.

[jason taylor]

We are aware of all that. No one is contending that Japan fought a nice war. And that is irrelevant to the subject.

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by marcus69x

Was that on last night Adam? I watched something about kamikaze pilots last night on the history channel. They were off their heads them guys like. All singing songs on their last walk to their aircraft??? Some of the footage showed that some of them even missed their target. I wonder how daft they would have felt knowing that. Also, if this was their contribution to helping their country, the fact that they lost, does that make their actions pointless?

Pointless is thinking from a strictly utillitarian point of view. They were thinking of it as a debt to their Emperor and their good name as well as a way of staving of disaster. Or to put it in our terms, "A man's got to do, what a man's got to do". So I doubt they would call it pointless even if they knew the outcome. In fact the organizer of the Kamikaze corps flew the last mission when he knew he had failed. Of course when we consider what people would have said if he had survived, that is not all that odd. But perhaps that is just the point.
And if an action becomes thought of as pointless because disaster is not in fact kept away, then no one will take those actions. If nothing else if taken in the right spirit, such things set an example for others in similar situations.
Before someone rebukes me again, for being naive about Japanese, again I say I am not. Their position came from their own folly and arrogance. However I can still admire aspects of them and certainly admire individual Japanese.

[jason taylor]

Another thing to consider is what it was like for a Japanese student. Now as an academic myself I can empathize with that. I have sometimes felt mildly annoyed with myself for not having gone to Iraq-even though I am a 4-f and have nothing to be ashamed of. It would be worse in World War II. I don't know what I would have done-presumably someone would have found something for me to do.
Now imagine in a society like Japan where honor* is held to such an all-prevasive extent. Every wounded soldier back from the front is a reproach. It is not hard to see why they would eagerly choose such a chance at proving themselves. Arguably it was quick and painless and fairly comfortable(they got to live quite well before hand, and therefore not really as brave as those who endured months after month of it).
So one can see why they would have done what they did. It is not alien to our own thought process. It simply requires a bit of thought to understand.



*this must not be glamorized-different countries have different interpretations of honor and the Japanese one was often bizarre and sinister-as has been indicated. It could also be more mundane then Karate movies indicate-for instance doing a good deed for a stranger puts an unexpected debt on them and so was considered bad manners.

[General Mayhem]

Originally Posted by jason taylor

I have sometimes felt mildly annoyed with myself for not having gone to Iraq-even though I am a 4-f and have nothing to be ashamed of. It would be worse in World War II.
Now imagine in a society like Japan where honor* is held to such an all-prevasive extent. Every wounded soldier back from the front is a reproach. It is not hard to see why they would eagerly choose such a chance at proving themselves. Arguably it was quick and painless and fairly comfortable(they got to live quite well before hand, and therefore not really as brave as those who endured months after month of it).
So one can see why they would have done what they did. It is not alien to our own thought process.

I maybe incorrect here but I recall seeing or reading something to the effect that later in the war many Kamikaze were not volunteers or at least they didn't have the option of changing their minds. The canopies were sealed and the bombs set to explode if they tried to land. Were the Japanese concepts of honor so different? Or was it rather that the ways they chose to act upon these concepts so different? In so far as the Japanese stress on community above individuality, I think that's a bit overblown and misunderstood by westerners. The same concept was indoctrinated in both Germany and USSR afterall. The Japanese "suicidal" mindset overlooks the fact that Japan surrendered as an intact nation while Germany commited national suicide, following Hitler to it's complete destruction. I have read that suicide was not uncommon amidst the germans in the final days of the war and after. (for a variety of reasons).
I don't know that I would consider there to be anything "heroic" about the kamikazies. From my readings this was an act of desperation on the part of the Military government. They knew that the war was lost, they hoped by making it so expensive in lives that the Americans would settle for less than Unconditional surrender. Another costly misreading of their opponents
"mindset". The first one being Pearl Harbor. It was a criminal waste of the lives of their people. I don't know why you should be mildy bothered about not going to Iraq. Those serving there may be heroes, but the people who sent them there are most certainly not.
GM

"History is about the exploitation of the many for the glory and benefit of the few." Merlin