Downfall

[angie999]

This was the name of the American plan for the two phase invasion of Japan, due to start with Operation Olympic in November 1945 if the war had not been brough to an end beforehand. Apart from the British Pacific Fleet, it would have been an all American affair.

These two links give good information on the plan and the planned Japanese defence:

http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/war.term/olympic.html
http://sandysq.gcinet.net/uss_salt_lake_ci...25/topsecrt.htm

Up to a million US casualties were predicted.

I only learned of this plan fairly recently and I bet it is largely unknown to many in Britain who otherwise know a lot about WWII.

What are your thoughts?

[Dave Leonard]

I honestly thought this was common knowledge? Certainly you can appreciate why they atomic bombed the Japanese, much cheaper and effective.

From my point of view, I would certainly say that bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki were the most pragmatic and at the end of the day, least expensive (in terms of time and allied lives) solution.

Nasty people wil say, but at the end of the day, it worked.

[angie999]

Originally posted by Dave Leonard@Sep 6 2004, 08:36 AM
I honestly thought this was common knowledge.

Quoted post

I would say that the intention is common knowledge, but the plan is not.

[Dave Leonard]

I've come across the plan before in outline detail. Normally it gives details of which US divisions were earmarked for the assault on the mainland, with detail of spt from the USAF. On a secondary note it also details the (by comparison) negligible Commonwealth contribution.

I have also seen examples of European based Commonwealth units being prepared to redeploy to the Pacific at the end of the War there, as well as the RAF being warned out to provide spt. My wifes great uncle told me how the Mosquito Sqn he was flying in was being transfered to India in July 1945 and would then spt any British efforts in the Japanese mainland.

The other thing that was bandied about was the consideration that the bomb was used as a way of forcing the Japanese to seek peace with all the allies before the Rusians could start to advance in through Asia under the pretext of liberation. By that stage the US already had their sights firmly on the cold war and had no interest in wasteing US tps in Japan when it was anticipated they may be fighting Russia by 1950.

[Kiwiwriter]

Operations Olympic and Coronet are not known as well in Europe as other events i the Pacific War.

First, the invasions never took place. A good reason to forget them.

Second, the initial forcs would have been mostly American. The British were to contribute naval forces as part of the US 3rd and 5th Fleets, and air units were re-deploying to Okinawa for support the invasion. These included the legendary 617 Squadron of Dambusters, complete with earthquake bombs to wreck Japanese railroad tunnels. No British ground forces would have participated in Olympic, although MacArthur planned to watch the invasion from an Australian cruiser.

Coronet was to see a Commonwealth corps, consisting of a British, Australian, and Canadian division. The British outfit was the 5th Division, experienced at mountain warfare from Italy. The Canadian 6th Division, with men from all five Canadian divisions, was being reorganized in America at the time of V-J Day. The Australians were to commit the 10th Division, also a new outfit.

The three divisions were to re-equip completely to American TOE and weaponry (probably even uniforms) to ease the logistical strain. The Canadian division was nearly complete with its re-organization, down to have three brigades replaced by three regiments. The Canadians cashed in their Lee-Enfields and Bren guns for M-1s and .50-calibers. Many American vehicles, like decue-and-a-half ton trucks, Sherman tanks, and jeeps, were already in heavy Commonwealth use.

A French division may have participated later in the campaign, along with a token Dutch force. MacArthur ruled out use of the Indian and Chinese armies in Olympic and Coronet.

Casualties, needless to say, would have been immense. The Japanese were mobilizing 10-year-old girls and boys with pikes, bayonets, and ceramic hand grenades, to launch suicide attacks. They had 20 million men, women, and children, mobilized.

[Ryuujin]

"If the Americans invade we have our 100,000,000"

From the movie Hiroshima I forget who said it though.

[Juanra]

Too many casualties to attempt them. Kamikazes!

[Kiwiwriter]

The Kamikaze attacks would have been horrendous. The Japanese had changed their operational art and tactics for Kamikaze use for Olympic and Coronet. Realizing that they were having little success sinking carriers and battleships, the Kamikaze attacks on Olympic convoys would aim for the troop transports. In addition, the Japanese had thousands of suicide attack boats ready for one-way voyages to ram themselves into American ships. These would clearly have beenhurled, by virtue of their short range, at the American invasion forces. So casualties would have been high among the invaders before the reached shore.

[Mark Hone]

Therr are (at least) two good books about 'Downfall': 'Codename Downfall' by Thomas B. Allen and Norman Polmar and the rather more academic but still readable 'The Invasion of Japan' by J.ohn Ray Skates. I got interested in the subject when SPI published a wargame on it in the 1970's and later when I read a 'what if' novel called 'The Burning Mountain' by Alfred Coppell about Operation 'Coronet'.
While British ground forces wouldn't have participated in 'Olympic' ( and possibly not in 'Coronet' either), it should not be forgotten that Commonwealth forces would have taken part in proposed operations elsewhere in Asia. My late father of 1st Northamptons was in training for Operation 'Zipper' the amphibious invasion of Malaya when the atomic bombs were dropped

[angie999]

Originally posted by Mark Hone@May 10 2005, 05:27 AM
I got interested in the subject when SPI published a wargame on it in the 1970's and later when I read a 'what if' novel called 'The Burning Mountain' by Alfred Coppell about Operation 'Coronet'.

Quoted post

I am not a "what if" person, but I must say that this one takes some beating. Fairly detailed US and Japanese plans, loads of controversial factors to dispute, but never happened. Can't think of any other WWII situation quite so ripe with possibilities for speculation.