Did the Japanese deserve the Atomic Bombs?

[Ryuujin]

But those millions wouldn't have been spent either way, the main problem with most people is that when you think of the atomic bomb you think of the statistics you don't know how trully devastating those bombs were you were not there, and can never know how horrible those bombs were and the damage it continued to cause aferwards.

And it would not have been a negotiated settlement all the Japanese wanted was to keep their Emperor and to have the words "unconditional surrender" removed from the potsdam declaration. And this was in 44.

The bombs were not needed and will never be needed again until either A: an asteroid hits us or B: aliens invade. and thats questionable as a military desicision.

[nolanbuc]

I also feel pretty strongly about this issue, but from another side of the coin. Seeing as how one of my grandfathers was a US Marine in the Pacific (the fellow in the picture to the left, in fact), and my other grandfather was in the US Army in Europe awaiting possible transfer to the Pacific when the war ended, I can safely say that if the war had not ended when it did, I may have never been born.

So I can't say that the Bombs helped end the war (which I believe they did), or that one little me is worth anything in the grand scheme of things, but I can say that I find having been born rather agreeable.

[angie999]

Originally posted by nolanbuc@Apr 29 2005, 09:23 AM


So I can't say that the Bombs helped end the war (which I believe they did), or that one little me is worth anything in the grand scheme of things, but I can say that I find having been born rather agreeable.

Quoted post

Well said and I am glad you were born too!

[nolanbuc]

Originally posted by angie999@Apr 29 2005, 12:41 PM

Well said and I am glad you were born too!

Quoted post

Why thank you!

[Ryuujin]

You're father/grand father wouldn't have died either way. If the Japanese "gave up" as early 44' NO ONE from that point onwards would've died. The Japanese knew that they were beaten and only wanted 2 things so they could surrender without shame. The alliies ended up keeping the Emperor anyways so what was the point of dropping the bombs and bombing the crap out of Japan if you were going to do what they wanted in the end anyways?

[Blackblue]

Can you provide any evidence of this Ryuujin? The main point here is that they DID NOT GIVE UP. To claim these two minor issues caused the Japanese to fight on is blatantly incorrect. The Potsdam Declaration occurred on 26 July 1945. Although there may have been some hinting of seeking peace prior to this they were obviously NOT serious about it. History (backed by signals intelligence) shows that the Japanese refused to agree to the Potsdam Proclomation because they had made overtures to the Soviet Union, in order to prevent them also entering the war. They were awaiting the outcome of these discussions, so that they would be in a better bargaining position with the remainder of the allies. Here is what Suzuki actually said in response to the proclomation:

"For the enemy to say something like that [the Potsdam Declaration] means circumstances have risen that force them also to end the war. That is why they are talking about unconditional surrender. Precisely at a time like this, if we hold firm, then they will yield before we do. Just because they broadcast their Declaration, it is not necessary to stop the fighting. You advisors may ask me to reconsider, but I don't think there is any need to stop [the war]".

The decision not to surrender backfired when the Soviets chose to enter the war and began moving forces into Manchuria. In the interim, given the refusal to accepts terms for surrender, the bombs were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Hindsight is a marvelous thing. Yes....it is a tragedy that the bombs were dropped...but what if they were not. There were actually many in the Japanese Government and Military who wanted to fight on. The Japanese military, even though clearly outmatched, may well have elected to fight on and millions more casualties would have resulted. Lets be realistic here...the bombs ended the war quickly. The terms of the Potsdam Proclomation were more than reasonable considering the circumstances....and so was the dropping of the bombs. The Japanese were in no position to argue the toss and fight on. There WAS no alternative but unconditional surrender.

Rgds

Tim

'We-the President of the United States, the President of the National Government of the Republic of China, and the Prime Minister of Great Britain, representing the hundreds of millions of our countrymen, have conferred and agreed that Japan shall be given an opportunity to end this war.

The prodigious land, sea and air forces of the United States, the British Empire and of China, many times reinforced by their armies and air fleets from the West, are poised to strike the final blows upon Japan. This military power is sustained and inspired by the determination of all the Allied Nations to prosecute the war against Japan until she ceases to exist.

The result of the futile and senseless resistance to the might of the aroused free peoples of the world stands forth in awful clarity as an example to the people of Japan. The might that now converges upon Japan is immeasurably greater than that which, when applied to the resisting Nazis, necessarily laid waste to the lands, the industry and the method of life of the whole German people. The full application of our military power, backed by our resolve, will mean the inevitable and complete destruction of the Japanese armed forces and just as inevitably the utter devastation of the Japanese homeland.

The time has come for Japan to decide whether she will continue to be controlled by those self-willed militaristic advisors whose unintelligent calculations have brought the Empire of Japan to the threshold of annihilation, or whether she will follow the path of reason.

Following are our terms. We will not deviate from them. There are no alternatives. We shall brook no delay:

There must be eliminated for all time the authority and influence of those who have deceived and mislead the people of Japan into embarking on a world conquest. We insist that a new order of peace, security and justice will be impossible until irresponsible militarism is driven from the world.

Until such a new order is established and until there is convincing proof that Japan's war-making power is destroyed, points in Japanese territory to be designated by the Allies shall be occupied to secure the achievement of the basic objectives we are here setting forth.

The terms of the Cairo declaration shall be carried out and Japanese sovereignty shall be limited to the islands of Honshu, Hokkaido, Kyushu, Shikoku and such minor islands as we determine.

The Japanese military forces, after being completely disarmed, shall be permitted to return to their homes with the opportunity to lead peaceful and productive lives.

We do not intend that the Japanese shall be enslaved as a race or destroyed as a nation, but stern justice shall be meted out to all war criminals, including those who have visited cruelties upon our prisoners. The Japanese government shall remove all obstacles to the revival and strengthening of democratic tendencies among the Japanese people. Freedom of speech, of religion and of thought as well as respect for the fundamental human rights shall be established.

Japan shall be permitted to maintain such industries as will sustain her economy and permit the exaction of just reparations in kind. but not those which would enable her to rearm for war. To this end, access to, as distinguished from control of, raw materials shall be permitted. Eventual Japanese participation in world trade relations shall be permitted.

The occupying forces of the Allies shall be withdrawn from Japan as soon as those objectives have been accomplished and there has been established in accordance with the freely expressed will of the Japanese people a peacefully inclined and responsible government.

We call upon the government of Japan to proclaim now the unconditional surrender of all Japanese armed forces, and to provide proper and adequate assurances of their good faith in such action. The alternative for Japan is prompt and utter destruction'.

[Ryuujin]

Okay I'll read that once I get home but I will provide a source.

"Liddel Hearts's: A history of the Second World War"

That is my source.

[halfyank]

Originally posted by Ryuujin@Apr 28 2005, 05:20 PM
But those millions wouldn't have been spent either way, the main problem with most people is that when you think of the atomic bomb you think of the statistics you don't know how trully devastating those bombs were you were not there, and can never know how horrible those bombs were and the damage it continued to cause aferwards.

And it would not have been a negotiated settlement all the Japanese wanted was to keep their Emperor and to have the words "unconditional surrender" removed from the potsdam declaration. And this was in 44.

The bombs were not needed and will never be needed again until either A: an asteroid hits us or B: aliens invade. and thats questionable as a military desicision.

Quoted post

I'm new here, though I know Angie from another board. I just have to jump in on this one. On your statement that we don't know how devastating those weapons are why are they worse than any other way to die? People were dying all over the Pacific. Firestorms from bombing, starvation, disease, plus all the other ways to die in a war, were all going on. Just how many people had to die? Is it worse for 200000 to 300000 to die in an atomic bomb, or it's aftermath, of for an untold number, and possibly far more, to die waiting for Japan to decide they have had enough? To say that "all Japanese wanted was to keep their Emperor" is all well and good, but just exactly where did Japan tell the Allies that all they had to do was agree to allow the Emperor to stay in power and then Japan would surrender? Also if they removed "unconditional surrender" just what other conditions did Japan want?

What is your basis, in hard cold facts, that support that Japan was ready to surrender in 1944, when even after two atomic bombs in 1945 there was still a an element in the Japanese government that didn't want to surrender.

No, I'm sorry, but I totally disagree that the bombs weren't needed. Yes, Japan was going to surrender, but how long, and how many would die before they did is unknown. Certainly there is every real reason to believe that more people would die before they gave up, than died in the two bombings.

[Ryuujin]

Did you at all read my previous post!? Liddel Heart's: A History of the Second World War. By god read before you type.

[Friedrich H]

The war in the pacific I will say again would've ended in 44.

How? Why, if it could then, did it not end in late 1944?

On the contrary. Japan was entirely willing to commit a national massive suicide fighting till the very end. If not, why were 1945 battles the bloodiest of the whole war?

You're father/grand father wouldn't have died either way. If the Japanese "gave up" as early 44' NO ONE from that point onwards would've died. The Japanese knew that they were beaten and only wanted 2 things so they could surrender without shame. The alliies ended up keeping the Emperor anyways so what was the point of dropping the bombs and bombing the crap out of Japan if you were going to do what they wanted in the end anyways?

Why not? You are not explaining those statements. Militarily speaking, the Japanese had not been entirely defeated. In fact, the Japanese armed forces still occupied thousands of square kilometres in the Pacific Ocean and South-East Asia. The brutal fighting at Burma, the Philippines and China had NOT yet ended in july 1945. The Japanese had shown at Iwo-Jima and Okinawa that even with 100% posibilities of dying, were not going to give up fighting.

900.000 regular troops were taking positions in Metropolitan Japan to fight the invasion, 21.000.000 men and women were rapidly form as a militia and nearly 9.000 planes were ready to be used in Kamikaze attacks. The raids on Tokio or the defeats of the Navy didn't convince them to surrender. The A-bombs DID.

"Liddel Hearts's: A history of the Second World War

Certainly not the best of sources… out of date and full with many myths. And I quote: "The German Army behaved even more gallantly than it did in WWI"… Indeed, since the Holocaust includes plenty of gallantry!