The RN against Japan

[raf]

Just been watching some footage of the US navy in action against Japanese Navy and airforce.

have to say they were outstanding. Especially against the Kamakarzi dive bombers.

Considering the RN were at full strength at the start of wwII and they hadnt lost ships at Dunkirk, Atlantic and in the Med.

how do you think they would have performed against The bigger ships, Subs, Torpeado's and dive bombers.

ive got a feeling it would have been disasterous.

what do you think.

cheers guys

[Kyt]

Initially they faired terribly - the RN lost the battleship Prince of Wales and the battle cruiser Repulse to Japanes air attack on the 10 the Dec 1941. Part of the problem was that almost all of the RN ships were engaged in the war against Germany. Another problem was that the British Government didn't appreciate the real threat from the Japanese until it was too late (even though they were repeatedly warned by their overseas bases in India and singapore). Some relied too much on Singapore (which, without the capital ships that were originally planned to be based there, was just a white elephant).

As more and more ships were freed up from the European conflict, the RN participation became greater, and they did indeed prove to be a worthy opponent to the Japanese. One example where they faired better is in the kamikazi attacks on aircraft carriers - the METAL decks on the RN ships weren't so vulnerable.

If you're interested in RN ship losses to the Japanese then (an occassional loss to the Germans may have slipped into the list!):

SOUTH EAST ASIA

1941

41/12/10 Battlecruiser REPULSE (33,250, 1916) Sunk by Japanese torpedo-aircraft, E coast of Malaya SE Asia
41/12/10 Battleship PRINCE OF WALES (35,000t, 31/3/41) Sunk by Japanese torpedo-aircraft, E coast of Malaya SE Asia
41/12/10 Minesweeper BANKA (R, 623t, 1914) Sunk by mine or aircraft, E. Coast of Malaya.
41/12/13 Examination vessel TUNG WO (R, 1,337t, 1914) Abandoned as a result of enemy action off Penang, Malaya.
41/12/30 Armed trader KUDAT (R, 1,725t, 1914) Sunk by A/C at Port Swettenham, Malaya.

1942

42/01/16 Motor launch KELANA (R, 88t) Sunk by aircraft. Malaya.
42/01/21 Collier ZANNIS L CAMBANIS (R, 5,317t, 1920). Mined off Singapore
42/01/22 Armed trader LARUT (R, 894t, 1927). Sunk by aircraft off E coast of Sumatra
42/01/22 Armed trader RAUB (R, 1,161t, 1926). Sunk by aircraft off E coast of Sumatra
42/01/27 Destroyer THANET (1,000t, 1919) Sunk in action with Japanese surface craft, off Malaya
42/02 Auxiliary anti-submarine vessel TIEN KWANG (R, 787t, 1925) Lost or destroyed to falling into enemy hands, Singapore Area.
42/02 Boom defence vessel DOWGATE (290t, 1935) Lost or destroyed to prevent falling into Japanese hands at Singapore
42/02 Boom defence vessel LUDGATE (290t, 1935) Lost or destroyed to prevent falling into Japanese hands at Singapore
42/02 Examination vessel SOLEN (R). Presumed lost at Singapore
42/02 Landing craft personnel (Large) LCP(L) No.180-185 (total 6, 8-11t each) Lost at Singapore
42/02 Motor launch ML PENGHAMBAT Lost or destroyed to prevent falling into enemy hands at Singapore
42/02 Motor launch ML PENINGAT (R) Lost or destroyed to prevent falling into enemy hands at Singapore
42/02 Patrol vessel GIANG BEE (R, 1,646t, 1908) Lost or destroyed to prevent falling into enemy hands Singapore area.
42/02 Small craft SHUN AN (R). Lost or destroyed to prevent falling into Japanese hands, Singapore
42/02 Tug WO KWANG (R, 350t, 1927). Assumed lost at Singapore
42/02/11 Armed trader LIPIS (R, 845t, 1927). Believed lost by enemy action, off Singapore
42/02/13 Auxiliary anti-submarine vessel SHU KWANG (R, 788t, 1924) Sunk by aircraft, Dutch East Indies
42/02/13 Auxiliary anti-submarine vessel SIANG WO (R, 2,595t, 1926) Bombed and beached Dutch East Indies.
42/02/13 Boom accomodation ship SUI WO (R, 2,672t, 1896) Lost or destroyed to prevent falling into Japanese hands at Singapore
42/02/13 Minesweeper HUA TONG (R, 280t, 1927) Sunk by aircraft in Palembang River, Sumatra.
42/02/13 River gun boat SCORPION (700t, 1938) Sunk by gunfire from Japanese surface craft, Banka Straits, after aircraft attack on the 9th
42/02/14 Armed trader VYNER BROOKE (R, 1,670t, 1928). Sunk by aircraft off Banka Straits, Sumatra
42/02/14 Auxiliary anti-submarine vessel KUALA (R, 954t, 1911) Sunk by aircraft, Dutch East Indies.
42/02/14 Minelayer KUNG WO (R, 4,636t, 1921) Sunk by aircraft bombs near Lingga Archipelago, Singapore area.
42/02/14 Minesweeper CHANGTEH (R, 244t) Sunk by aircraft bombs, Singapore area
42/02/14 Motor launch ML No.311 (73t, 29/11/41) Sunk by Japanese gunfire. Banka Straits, Sumatra.
42/02/14 River gun boat DRAGONFLY (625t, 1939) Sailing from Singapore and sunk by aircraft bombs
42/02/14 River gun boat GRASSHOPPER (625t, 1939) Sailing from Singapore and sunk by aircraft bombs
42/02/14 Tug PENGAWAL. Sunk by aircraft, Durian Straits, Singapore
42/02/14 Tug ST BREOCK (810t), Sunk by aircraft bombs off Sumatra
42/02/14 Tug ST JUST (810t, 1919) Sunk by aircraft, Durian Straits, Singapore
42/02/14 Whaler TRANG (R, 205t, 1912) Fired and abandoned, Cooper Channel, Singapore
42/02/15 Minesweeper KLIAS (R, 207t, 1927) Scuttled at Palembang, Sumatra
42/02/15 Tug YIN PING (R, 1914) Sunk by gunfire
42/02/16 Motor launch ML No.1062 (40t, 9/42) Sunk by gunfire, Banka Straits, Sumatra.
42/02/17 Minesweeper JARAK (R, 208t) Sunk by A/C bombs, Singapore area
42/02/18 Minesweeper MALACCA (R, 210t, 1927) Scuttled in Tjemako river, Sumatra
42/02/27 Destroyer ELECTRA (1,375t, 1934) Sunk by surface craft, gunfire, Java Sea
42/02/27 Destroyer JUPITER (1,760t, 25/6/39) Sunk by torpedo, Java Sea
42/02/28 Auxiliary anti-submarine vessel MATA HARI (R, 1,020t, 1915) Sunk by aircraft in Sunda Strait, Java Sea.
42/02-03 Minesweeper FUH WO (R, 953t, 1922) Lost by enemy action or destroyed at Singapore
42/02-03 Minesweeper LI WO (R, 707t,1938) Lost by enemy action or destroyed at Singapore
42/02-03 Minesweeper SIN AIK LEE (R, 198t, 1928) Lost by enemy action or destroyed at Singapore
42/02-03 Minesweeper TAPAH (R, 208t, 1926) Lost by enemy action or destroyed at Singapore
42/03 Whaler JERAM (R, 210t, 1927) Presumed lost, Singapore area
42/03/01 Cruiser EXETER (8,390t, 1931) Sunk in action with Japanese surface craft, Java Seas
42/03/01 Destroyer ENCOUNTER (1,375t, 1934) Sunk in action, surface craft, Java Sea
42/03/01 Motor launch ML No.1063 (40t, 1/42) Sunk in action, Tanjong Priok, Java.
42/03/01 Tanker/oiler WAR SIRDAR (5,518t, 1920). Lost on reef, NW Batavia
42/03/01 Whaler RAHMAN (R, 209t, 1926) Lost or destroyed, Batavia
42/03/02 Destroyer STRONGHOLD (905t, 1919) Sunk in action, surface craft, South of Java
42/03/02 Whaler GEMAS (R, 207t, 1925) Scuttled, Tjilatjap, Java
42/03/03 Minesweeper SCOTT HARLEY (R, 620t, 1913) Sunk, probably by surface craft, Indian Ocean
42/03/03 Tanker/oiler FRANCOL (2,623t, 1917). Sunk by gunfire of Japanese surface craft, S of Java
42/03/03 Base ship ANKING (R, 3,472t, 1925) Sunk by gunfire from Japanese surface craft, S of Java, Indian Ocean
42/03/04 Motor minesweeper MMS No.51 (226t, 29/11/41) Scuttled S of Java to prevent capture by Japanese.
42/03/08 Whaler JERANTUT (R, 217t, 1927) Scuttled, Palembang, Sumatra
42/12/25 Landing craft personnel (Large) LCP(L) No.36 (8-11t) Lost by fire at Chittagong, India. Date given as 24th-25th

1943

43/01 Landing craft personnel (Large) LCP(L) No.203-206 (total 4, 8-11t each) Lost at Sourabaya, Java (in January 1943?)
43/01/03 Landing craft personnel (Large) LCP(L) No.17 (8-11t) Lost by fire at Chittagong, India
43/03 Landing craft support (Medium) (MkI) LCS(M) No.23 (9-13.5t) Lost on patrol, Mayu River, Burma
43/04/25 Landing craft support (Medium) (MkI) LCS(M) No.17 (9-13.5t) Sunk by enemy action, Mayu River, Burma

1944

44/03 Landing craft mechanised (MkI) LCM No.76, Lost in E Indies. Date reported
44/03/22 Submarine STONEHENGE (715t, 15/6/43) Lost on patrol, probably off Nicobar Islands, Indian Ocean, Date approximate
44/05 Landing craft mechanised (MkI) LCM No.131, 182, 183, 207, 209 (total 5, 30-37t each) Lost in E Indies. Date reported
44/06 Landing craft assault LCA No.33, 56, 146 (total 3, 11-13.5t each) Lost in E Indies. Date reported
44/06 Landing craft mechanised (MkI) LCM No.91 (30-37t) Lost in E Indies. Date reported
44/07 Landing craft assault LCA No.54 (11-13.5t) Lost in E Indies. Date reported
44/10/28 Human torpedo/Chariot No.79/LXXIX (1.94t, 17/4/44) Lost in operation, Puket Harbour, Thailand
44/10/28 Human torpedo/Chariot No.80/LXXX (1.94t, 15/5/44) Lost in operation, Puket Harbour, Thailand
44/11 Landing craft tank (MkV) LCT No.2461 291-311t) Capsized and sunk by gunfire, Bay of Bengal.
44/11/22 Submarine STRATAGEM (715t, 9/10/43) Sunk by surface vessel, depth-charges, off Malacca, East Indies

1945

45/01/19 Submarine PORPOISE (1,500t, 1933) Sunk, probably by aircraft , Malacca Strait, E Indies. Date approximate
45/01/24 Motor launch ML No.891 (75t, 28/3/44) Sunk by mine, Kyauk Pyu, N of Ramree Island, Burma
45/03/05 Landing craft personnel (Ramped) LCP(R) No.979 (9-11t) Lost when in use as ship's boat in Eastern Theatre.
45/04 Landing craft mechanised (MkIII) LCM No.1319,1327 (total 2, 52t each) Lost on Arakan Coast, Burma
45/05/02 Landing craft tank (MkIV) LCT No.1238 (611-640t) Mined in Rangoon River, Burma
45/05/09 Motor launch ML No.905 (75t, 10/5/44) Foundered in tidal wave, Sittang River estuary, Burma
45/05/09 Motor launch ML No.591 (75t, 18/4/44) Foundered in tidal wave, Sittang River estuary, Burma
45/05/29 Landing craft personnel (Large) LCP(L) No.344, 378 (total 2, 8-11t each) Sunk at Akyab, Burma.
45/06 Landing craft mechanised (MkI) LCM No.354, 493 (total 2, 30-37t) Lost in operations on Arakan Coast, Burma. Date reported
45/06 Landing craft support (Medium) (MkII) LCS(M) No.30 (12.5t) Lost in operations on Arakan Coast, Burma. Date reported
45/06 Landing craft support (Medium) (MkIII) LCS(M) No.148 (13.5t) Lost in operations on Arakan Coast, Burma. Date reported
45/07/24 Minesweeper SQUIRREL (940t, 16/8/44) Damaged by mine off Puket, Siam (Thailand). Sunk by own forces
45/07/26 Minesweeper VESTAL (940t, 10/9/43) Sunk by aircraft, off Puket, Siam (Thailand)

Possibly SOUTH EAST ASIA


1944

44/ Landing craft mechanised (MkIII) LCM No.525, 559, 591, 650, 907 (total 5, 52t each) Lost overseas, presumed during 1944.
44/ Landing craft personnel (Ramped) LCP(R) No.640, 735, 978, 982, 987, 989, 991, 993, 1023 (total 9, 9-11t) Lost overseas, presumed during 1944.
44/ Landing craft personnel (Large) LCP(L) No.540, 760 (total 2, 8-11t each) Lost overseas, presumed during 1944.
44/05 Landing craft mechanised (MkI) LCM No.212, 215, 218, 219, 243, 272, 277, 285, 288, 324 (total 10, 30-37t each) Lost oveseas. Date reported
44/05 Landing craft mechanised (MkIII) LCM No.527, 534, 540, 588, 1029, 1045, 1071, 1083, 1123, 1171, 1205 (total 11, 52t each) Lost overseas. Date reported
44/05 Landing craft personnel (Large) LCP(L) No.8, 263, 287, 577 (total 4, 8-11t each) Lost overseas. Date reported
44/05 Landing craft personnel (Ramped) LCP(R) No.614, 634, 663, 824, 844, 912. 913, 995 (total 8, 9-11t each) Lost overseas. Date reported
44/06 Landing craft mechanised (MkI) LCM No.295 (30-37t) Lost overseas.

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EAST ASIA


1941

41/12/08 River gun boat PETEREL (310t, 1927) Sunk by Japanese Forces at Shanghai.
41/12/09 Special service vessel KANTUNG (R) Sunk as blockship in Anking Harbour
41/12/09 Special service vessel MACAO (R) Sunk as blockship in Anking Harbour
41/12/12 River gun boat MOTH (625t, 1916) Scuttled at Hong Kong.
41/12/15 Tug INDIRA (R, 637t, 1918) Sunk during air attack on Hong Kong.
41/12/16 Motor torpedo boat MTB No.8 (18t, 1937) Destroyed by fire during raid on Hong Kong.
41/12/19 Boom defence vessel ALDGATE (290t, 1934) Scuttled at Hong Kong
41/12/19 Boom defence vessel BARLIGHT (730t, 1938) Scuttled at Hong Kong
41/12/19 Boom defence vessel WATERGATE (290t, 1934) Scuttled at Hong Kong
41/12/19 Minelayer REDSTART (498t, 1938) Scuttled at Hong Kong.
41/12/19 River gun boat TERN (262t, 1917) Scuttled at Hong Kong.
41/12/20 Motor torpedo boat MTB No.12 (18t, 1938) Sunk in action with Japanese landing craft, Hong Kong
41/12/20 Motor torpedo boat MTB No.26 (14t, 1938) Sunk in action with Japanese landing craft, Hong Kong
41/12/21 River gun boat CICALA (625t, 1916) Sunk by aircraft bombs, Hong Kong.
41/12/25 River gun boat ROBIN (226t, 1934) Scuttled at Hong Kong.
41/12/26 Motor torpedo boat MTB No.7 (18t, 1938) Scuttled at Hong Kong.
41/12/26 Motor torpedo boat MTB No.9 (18t, 1937) Scuttled at Hong Kong
41/12/26 Motor torpedo boat MTB No.10 (18t, 1938) Scuttled at Hong Kong
41/12/26 Motor torpedo boat MTB No.11 (18t, 1938) Scuttled at Hong Kong
41/12/26 Motor torpedo boat MTB No.27 (14t, 1938) Scuttled at Hong Kong

1942

42/ Small craft MATCHLOCK (70t). Sunk by mine at Canton, China, date unknown

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PACIFIC OCEAN


1944

44/12 Landing craft assault LCA No.1188 (11-13.5t) Lost in Solomon Islands, SW Pacific

1945

45/02/26 Landing craft assault LCA No.1161 (11-13.5t) Lost through heavy weather at Leyte, Philippines
45/03/27 Landing craft assault LCA No.1472 (11-13.5t) Lost at Leyte, Philippines
45/03/30 Landing craft assault LCA No.1433 (11-13.5t) Smashed by heavy seas, Admiralty Islands, SW Pacific

[Kyt]

p.s. I forgot to mention that I'm currently reading "The Forgotten Air Force: The Royal Air Force in the War against Japan 1941-45", and in it the writer is scathing of the preparations for war (or rather lack of preparations), especially in Singapore. He talks about the conflicts between London and the commanders in Singapore, the conflicts between the different branch commanders, and the almost paternalistic disdain of any intelligence reports that indicated that the Japanese navy and air force were excellent, and quite capable of fighting and winning engagements against the British.

Well worth a read.

[Desert Dog]

I belive you ment to say:

The metal decks of the RN carriers were less vulnerable to the kamikazi attacks.

Other than that, spot on assesment.

[Kyt]

Originally Posted by Desert Dog

I belive you ment to say:

The metal decks of the RN carriers were less vulnerable to the kamikazi attacks.

Other than that, spot on assesment.

Whoops - I always get that the wrong way around. Cheers DD.

[raf]

cheers kyt

those figures just shows how many ships the uk supplied to the far east campaign.

you say that the RN improved in the later years but was that due to the involment of the yanks.

im interested in how good the RN actually were.

there no disputing that they saved Britain with the Atlantic campaign, Dunkirk etc.

but

the Bismark sank our ellite ship the Hood and the RN had to gang up on the bismark to sink it.

also the RN stayed away from the tirpitz ...well you could say the tirpitz stayed away from us. but it was the RAF who were sent in to destroy it.

just how would the RN have faired against the big boys one on one

thanks for your help

[Kyt]

I suppose the most succinct response would be to quote from

Royal Navy, warships, WW2, battleships, battlecruisers, aircraft carriers, cruisers, destroyers, submarines, escorts

"September 1939 - Strengths and Weaknesses The Fleet was reasonably well-equipped to fight conventional surface actions with effective guns, torpedoes and fire control, but in a maritime war that would soon revolve around the battle with the U-boat, the exercise of air power, and eventually the ability to land large armies on hostile shores, the picture was far from good.
ASDIC, the RN's answer to the submarine, had limited range and was of little use against surfaced U-boats, and the stern-dropped or mortar-fired depth charge was the only reasonably lethal anti-submarine weapon available. The Fleet Air Arm (FAA) recently returned to full control of the Navy, was equipped with obsolescent aircraft, and in the face of heavy air attack the Fleet had few, modern anti-aircraft guns. Co-operation with the RAF was limited although three Area Combined Headquarters had been established in Britain. Coastal Command, the RAF's maritime wing, had only short range aircraft, mainly for reconnaissance. And there was little combined operations capability.


On the technical side, early air warning radars were fitted to a small number of ships. The introduction by the Germans of magnetic mines found the Royal Navy only equipped to sweep moored contact mines. Finally, the German Navy's B-Service could read the Navy's operational and convoy codes."


Comparing the numbers of ships available to the different countries, the actual experince of each navy and the capabilities of the crews would give the impression that the RN could hold their own at the beginning of the war. However, if you want a scenario of battleship against battleship, then seeing as the Japanese built some of the biggest battleships of the war, then the RN would have lost.

[Kyt]

Quite a fun site comparing seven battleships of ww2:

Battleship Comparison