Gloster Meteor vs. Me-262

[STEVEN]

And now the Me262

Stephen

[BlackSeptember1918]

Stephen
Absolutely brilliant pics mate !!!!! .
I am looking forward to adding some details on the 262 , but as I was sipping a scotch at the end of the day I thought I would look up werk # 112372 .
I found that it is painted in the colours of KG(J)51 . However the authors of the 262 combat diary's took Hermann Buchner to see it oneday . He sat in the cockpit and said " these markings are wrong . This is not a fighter-bomber . I can tell at once from the weapons switches . It must have come from my old unit Jagdgeswader 7 !"....Interesting stuff huh ?.
Phil.
really great pic's !!!!

[STEVEN]

Phil

As i said the pictures came straight from the museum guide book.All the pictures in the book are of the actual aircraft on display in the museum.All i've done with the pictures once i'd scanned them was enlarge them.

Looking at the two aircraft together i'd have to say the Me262 looks more purposeful,built for speed.Interesting to think where would the Me262 have ended up if it had,had the extended production life and developement post war that the meteor had.Or indeed if they hadn't had the quality problems with the turbine blades.The guide book even has pictures of the two engines and in the case of the Jumo 004,even that looks built for speed.

The Meteor proved to be a rugged aircraft none the less and proved easily adaptable for a wide variety of one off specials for testing purposes.I've seen a photograph of one fitted with two "Turbo-Prop" engines during the late 40's early 50's.The museum has 3 other examples of the Meteor.A T7 trainer used by Martin Baker for Ejector Seat trials,a one off special with an extended nose for trials with the pilot lying in the Prone position and a NF 14.

It is a night fighter version that is the last air worthy example in the world.Unique in that it has less than 500 hour's on it's airframe and has used only about 40% of it's air frame fatique life !!.A regular on the Uk airshow circuit.

Attatched is a photo of the extended nose meteor i mentioned.It is a modified F8,with the tail of a NF12 to counter balance the long nose.The idea behind it was to try and prevent the pilot passing out in high "G" manouvers.It made a total of 99 flights before the project was stopped and the subsequent development of the G Suit,made the need for the pilot to lie down unnessecary.Interesting to think of an Me262 modified in such a way,had the boot been on the other foot !!

Look forward to the figures.

Stephen

[BlackSeptember1918]

First off , I have to retract something I said earlier . When the 262 first flew with the BMW003's , it didn't have a DB605 in the nose as a safety backup , but a DB210 .
I guess the Jumo 004's are the centre of any discussion about the Me262 , but also to remember is the problems with adapting an airframe to perform well and safely at untried high speeds . This possed many problems and things that seemed like they would take little designing , like the retractable front undercarriage wheel continually caused problems and delays .
The 12th prototype of the Me262 reached a speed of 624 mph in July 1944 . It would be years before this record was broken . The 262 could be flown up to 570 mph , but from 585-620mph ( depending on the individual airframe ) it could become uncontrolable . Often it would pitch down progressively , until it was impossible to correct the dive , and with no ejector seat , the pilot was doomed . Luftwaffe instructions were , that 596 mph should never be exceeded below 26,250 ft , and above that no aircraft should exceed 560 mph.
As far as the Jumo 004's are concerned , Stephen was very correct when he said the life of a production engine was between 10 and 24 hours , depending much on the skill of the pilot . The early pre-production engines could operate on the test bed for as much as 250 hours . This was because they used high grade chrominum and nickel . These engines used 88kg of nickel . By late 1943 only 24.4 kg of nickel was authorized for each engine . The German engineers brilliantly adapted and such item's as the combustion chambers were made from steel and sprayed with aluminium before being baked in an oven . Whilst being successful , these techniques were only a part answer and the failure of these parts to take the pressure and heat caused many failures and fires , which if happened in the air , with the 262 limping back on one engine , and many Allied fighters around hungry to add a " blow job " to there score , could often mean death . Even to escape by parachute was fraught with danger as some U.S. fighter groups had been " unofficially " ordered to shoot jet pilots in their chutes as they believed only specially trained aircrew could fly the jet .
The actual engine life was not such a problem if supplies of spare engines were available , as it could take as little as 30 minutes to replace an engine in the right conditions .
Anyway..thats enough typing for the moment , long winded posts are a pain in the A .
I get my sources from 3 great books if anyone was interested in further reading , and they are . The Messerschmitt 262 Combat Diary.. JG7 , and The Last Year of the Luftwaffe ...I have some others on the subject , but a bloke has got only so many eyes !
Phil.

[STEVEN]

Phil

Thanks for that,very interesting is The Messerschmitt 262 Combat Diary still available or is it going to be a trawl around the internet for that one ??.

It wasn't till the arrival of the Meteor F8 (in October 1948) that the speeds of the two aircraft were comparable (598mph) by which time the Me262 was long gone.

If the war had dragged on it would have been interesting to see an F8 up against an Me262.Highly probable though that with the extra development time gained by the war dragging on, the Me262 may well have been even faster still.Especially if that time had allowed them to solve the reliabilty problems with the engines.

The two advantage's of all versions of the Meteor had over the Me262 was the pilot's" better view out of the window",due to the cockpit been well forward of the leading edge of the wing.Plus from the ouset the Meteor was designed with Tricycle under carriage,were as it was "forced" on the Me262 after problems arising from having a tail wheel on the initial prototypes.Problems which you have touched on in your posting.

We shall never know how the two aircraft would have faired when pitted against each other.It is something we can only ponder over in threads like this or possibly experience in games/flight simulators on our PC's.

One last thing the only "known" combat victory by a Meteor was by an Israeli NF13 in October 1956,when it shot down an IL 14 transport of the Eygptian airforce.

Stephen

[Justin Moretti]

Hang on a minute - surely not the ONLY Meteor kill: didn't the Aussie Meteor F.8s in the Korean conflict bag a number of MiG 15's? Maybe the only NF kill...

As far as the war dragging on is concerned: the Germans had, ready for flight-test, the tailless swept wing Horten/Gotha 229 (Horten IX to some), which could allegedly do 600-odd MPH in level flight. That's cutting close to F-86 performance in 1945! Plus numerous other designs which (regrettably) we will never get to see how well they might have done (though at least one was built/completed by the USSR and became their first supersonic aircraft).

The British went for the centrifugal-compressor engine (as opposed to the German axial-flow), which by my understanding was a lot easier to build and maintain, but whose downfall was that it was totally unsuited for very high speeds and basically had no future to it. Under the circumstances, CORRECT. But once the pressure was off and engine development became a leisurely affair, the centrifugal-compressor concept went on the back-burner (and stayed there). The message is not "Kids, don't try this at home," but "Try this first before you build an axial engine." :P

[Justin Moretti]

Originally posted by BlackSeptember1918@Jun 11 2004, 12:11 PM
... I thought I would look up werk # 112372 .
I found that it is painted in the colours of KG(J)51 . However the authors of the 262 combat diary's took Hermann Buchner to see it oneday . He sat in the cockpit and said " these markings are wrong . This is not a fighter-bomber . I can tell at once from the weapons switches . It must have come from my old unit Jagdgeswader 7 !"

All goes to prove, there's nothing like the opinion of a REAL expert to deflate the egos of those who THINK they know it all!!! :P

[STEVEN]

Originally posted by Justin Moretti@Jun 23 2004, 12:54 AM
Hang on a minute - surely not the ONLY Meteor kill: didn't the Aussie Meteor F.8s in the Korean conflict bag a number of MiG 15's? Maybe the only NF kill.

Justin

My source is the (The Illustrated Directory of Fighters) it covers both the F8 and the NF series of the Meteor.

In the write up for the F8 it merely says "The F8 was flown in Korea in 1952 by the RAAF against communist MiG-15's,which outclassed it".It makes no mention of any "kills".

The same book does say "as far as is known,the only air combat victory scored by ........" was by a NF 13 as previuosly mentioned.

I'd loved to be proved wrong,there's nothing i love more than pulling books/publishers to pieces when they get things wrong !!.

Do you know of any accounts written by those RAAF pilots of the F8's about their experiences against the MiG's.It would make for fascinating reading and if they actually managed to bring any down that would have been some achievement.

Stephen

[STEVEN]

Originally posted by Justin Moretti+Jun 23 2004, 12:56 AM-->

All goes to prove, there's nothing like the opinion of a REAL expert to deflate the egos of those who THINK they know it all!!! :P [/b]

No greater expert than a former pilot who's been there,seen it,done it.The passing of time certainly didn't seem to dull the memory of Hermann Buchner.

Reminds me of an something from a few years back.At the time of the hostage taking in the Lebonon Terry Waite,John McCarthy and Jackie Mann.

When Jackie Mann a former Battle of Britain Spitfire pilot was finally released the RAF put on a guard of honour and brought along a Spitfire.Jackie hadn't sat in a Spitfire since his wartime days.He sat in the aircraft for the first time in around 50 years and the first thing he said was "where's the gun-sight".Really made me smile that.

Apparently they'd removed the gun-sight as they didn't think there was any need for it in peacetime.Don't think Jackie did though !!. :P

Stephen

[morse1001]

“That, then, was the Me 262, variously known as the Schwalbe and the Strumvogel. But whatever the appellation, it was in my view unquestionably the foremost warplane of its day: a hard hitter which outperformed anything that we immediately available….”
Brown RN, Capt Eric., Wings of the Luftwaffe, Airflife, 1979, P68

the Good Captain had flown both the ME262 and Meteor