Merchant Seamen and the CWGC what is the criteria

JOHNB84 · 30-12-2007, 11:12 AM

Hello all
On one of our local war memorials, Hallgarth, Pittington, Co, Durham, is a young lad named Oswald T. Livingstone. The memorial states Oswald was serving with the Merchant Navy and died on the 20 August, 1941 aged 20 years. He is not listed on the CWGC site. After a little bit of detective work I have found Oswald's death registered in the July-Sept quarter at West Ham. My question is please would a Merchant Navy seaman have to have lost his life at sea to be recognised and commemorated by the CWGC.

Apologies if this is not in the right area on the forum.

Thanks
John.

ADM199 · 30-12-2007, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JOHNB84

Hello all
On one of our local war memorials, Hallgarth, Pittington, Co, Durham, is a young lad named Oswald T. Livingstone. The memorial states Oswald was serving with the Merchant Navy and died on the 20 August, 1941 aged 20 years. He is not listed on the CWGC site. After a little bit of detective work I have found Oswald's death registered in the July-Sept quarter at West Ham. My question is please would a Merchant Navy seaman have to have lost his life at sea to be recognised and commemorated by the CWGC.

Apologies if this is not in the right area on the forum.

Thanks
John.

Hi John,
the man should have his death recorded by CWGC. There is one man with the name of Livingstone who was in the Merchant Navy recorded by the CWGC for 1941. His Christian name was Peter though.
Perhaps a message to the CWGC Enquiry section would give a result.

Brian

Peter Clare · 30-12-2007, 12:16 PM

Hi John,

Not sure if I'm taking out of my a**e here but the only merchant ship involved in an action on 20 August 1941 was the tanker TURBO 4,782 tons (Anglo-Saxon Petrol Co) The action happened near Port Said when the TURBO was seriously damaged by a torpedo fired by an aircraft, the tanker was towed to Port Said .

If your man lost his life during this action, where would his death be registered, Port Said or back in the UK?

Regards
Peter.

Harry Ree · 30-12-2007, 12:17 PM

If he was lost at sea, ie without a known grave, whilst in Merchant Navy service,he should be remembered on the Tower Hill Memorial,London near to the Tower of London

I am not sure of the registration centre for those lost at sea whilst in Merchant Navy service.

ADM199 · 30-12-2007, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harry Ree

If he was lost at sea, ie without a known grave, whilst in Merchant Navy service,he should be remembered on the Tower Hill Memorial,London near to the Tower of London

I am not sure of the registration centre for those lost at sea whilst in Merchant Navy service.

Harry the man I mentioned in my earlier post is remembered as you say,on the Tower Hill Memorial.
The search engine on the C.W.G.C. web site has the provision for searching for members of the Merchant Navy. So it looks as though the responsibility is that of the C.W.G.C.

Brian

JOHNB84 · 30-12-2007, 01:46 PM

Thank you all for your very informative replies. I will contact the CWGC Enquiry section to ask what there criteria is regarding commemorating Merchant Seamen deaths. Although I am sure I have read somewhere (can't for the life of me remember where) that Merchant Seaman had to have lost their lives as a result of enemy action to be included for commemoration by the CWGC.
I think it looks very likely that Oswald Livingstone must have died on UK soil, as his death is registered in the UK at West Ham, I think the next logical step I must take is to order his death certificate.
But for whatever reason he died the residents from his village must/may have thought his death was war related or died in service as to include him on the local war memorial.

Thanks again
John.

Hugh MacLean · 30-12-2007, 01:54 PM

It is not as straight forward as that. Unfortunately only those merchant seamen who died whille their ship was involved in military operations are commemorated.

If a ship was lost, say by a collision or bad weather etc those lost were not recorded by the CWGC. The irony is that military gunners serving on merchant ships would be commemorated by the CWGC no matter what the circumstances of the ships loss.

Those Merchant Navy seamen lost while their ships were involved in military operations would be commemorated on the Towerhill Memorial. Only those with no grave but the sea will be honoured there. If a merchant seman was lost through a war cause but was buried ashore then his name would not be on the Towerhill Memorial.

Regards
Hugh

JOHNB84 · 30-12-2007, 02:14 PM

Hugh
Thanks for the confirmation. Although it doesn't seem fair, that a ship goes down in a storm etc during the war while on convoy duties etc, the lads serving with the merchant navy don't get commemorated by the CWGC, but the military gunners on the same ship do.
Would you happen to know about merchant navy lads wounded in action then latter succumbing to their wounds in a hospital in England, if not on the Towerhill Memorial do they get CWGC recognition via their web site..

Thanks
John.

Hugh MacLean · 30-12-2007, 02:33 PM

Hello John,

Yes the unfairness to the Merchant Navy is to my mind a national disgrace and successive governments have been culpable.

Quote:

Would you happen to know about merchant navy lads wounded in action then latter succumbing to their wounds in a hospital in England, if not on the Towerhill Memorial do they get CWGC recognition via their web site..

The answer to that should be yes but I would wager some were not. There are still issues with commemorating Merchant Navy personnel. I work on another forum where one man in particular takes to do with trying to ensure that those Merchant Navy seamen who should be commemorated by the CWGC are registered as such but it is not an easy task and the CWGC do insist on evidence to support each case.

There are probably many more Merchant Navy seamen who should be added to the official war dead figure who died of their wounds long after the actions they were involved in.

Regards
Hugh

JOHNB84 · 30-12-2007, 06:48 PM

Thanks Hugh
I will send off for his death certificate in the new-year, I will let you all know what Oswald's cause of death was. If it was wound related I will try and gather as much evidence as possible to put it forward to the CWGC, if it wasn't I don't suppose there is much that can be done about it....which in a way, like the thousands of other cases, is a very sad state of affairs.

Thanks all again
John.

30-12-2007, 11:12 AM	#1 (permalink)
JOHNB84 Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 51	Merchant Seamen and the CWGC what is the criteria Hello all On one of our local war memorials, Hallgarth, Pittington, Co, Durham, is a young lad named Oswald T. Livingstone. The memorial states Oswald was serving with the Merchant Navy and died on the 20 August, 1941 aged 20 years. He is not listed on the CWGC site. After a little bit of detective work I have found Oswald's death registered in the July-Sept quarter at West Ham. My question is please would a Merchant Navy seaman have to have lost his life at sea to be recognised and commemorated by the CWGC. Apologies if this is not in the right area on the forum. Thanks John.

30-12-2007, 12:16 PM	#3 (permalink)
Peter Clare Very Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Windsor UK Posts: 4,958	Hi John, Not sure if I'm taking out of my a*e here but the only merchant ship involved in an action on 20 August 1941 was the tanker TURBO* 4,782 tons (Anglo-Saxon Petrol Co) The action happened near Port Said when the TURBO was seriously damaged by a torpedo fired by an aircraft, the tanker was towed to Port Said . If your man lost his life during this action, where would his death be registered, Port Said or back in the UK? Regards Peter. __________________ On weald of Kent I watched once more Again I heard that grumbling roar Of fighter planes; yet none were near And all around the sky was clear Borne on the wind a whisper came 'Though men grow old, they stay the same' And then I knew, unseen to eye The ageless Few were sweeping by

30-12-2007, 12:17 PM	#4 (permalink)
Harry Ree Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 590	If he was lost at sea, ie without a known grave, whilst in Merchant Navy service,he should be remembered on the Tower Hill Memorial,London near to the Tower of London I am not sure of the registration centre for those lost at sea whilst in Merchant Navy service. Last edited by Harry Ree; 30-12-2007 at 12:20 PM.

30-12-2007, 01:54 PM	#7 (permalink)
Hugh MacLean Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Scotland Posts: 71	It is not as straight forward as that. Unfortunately only those merchant seamen who died whille their ship was involved in military operations are commemorated. If a ship was lost, say by a collision or bad weather etc those lost were not recorded by the CWGC. The irony is that military gunners serving on merchant ships would be commemorated by the CWGC no matter what the circumstances of the ships loss. Those Merchant Navy seamen lost while their ships were involved in military operations would be commemorated on the Towerhill Memorial. Only those with no grave but the sea will be honoured there. If a merchant seman was lost through a war cause but was buried ashore then his name would not be on the Towerhill Memorial. Regards Hugh Last edited by Hugh MacLean; 30-12-2007 at 04:35 PM.

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30-12-2007, 01:46 PM	#6 (permalink)
JOHNB84 Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 51	Thank you all for your very informative replies. I will contact the CWGC Enquiry section to ask what there criteria is regarding commemorating Merchant Seamen deaths. Although I am sure I have read somewhere (can't for the life of me remember where) that Merchant Seaman had to have lost their lives as a result of enemy action to be included for commemoration by the CWGC. I think it looks very likely that Oswald Livingstone must have died on UK soil, as his death is registered in the UK at West Ham, I think the next logical step I must take is to order his death certificate. But for whatever reason he died the residents from his village must/may have thought his death was war related or died in service as to include him on the local war memorial. Thanks again John.

30-12-2007, 02:14 PM	#8 (permalink)
JOHNB84 Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 51	Hugh Thanks for the confirmation. Although it doesn't seem fair, that a ship goes down in a storm etc during the war while on convoy duties etc, the lads serving with the merchant navy don't get commemorated by the CWGC, but the military gunners on the same ship do. Would you happen to know about merchant navy lads wounded in action then latter succumbing to their wounds in a hospital in England, if not on the Towerhill Memorial do they get CWGC recognition via their web site.. Thanks John.

30-12-2007, 06:48 PM	#10 (permalink)
JOHNB84 Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 51	Thanks Hugh I will send off for his death certificate in the new-year, I will let you all know what Oswald's cause of death was. If it was wound related I will try and gather as much evidence as possible to put it forward to the CWGC, if it wasn't I don't suppose there is much that can be done about it....which in a way, like the thousands of other cases, is a very sad state of affairs. Thanks all again John.

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