uk subs

[raf]

in 1939 the uk had 60 subs


were they just used for escorting across the atlantic

were they a threat to the german,italian and japs navy what was there success rate..

cheers

[Glider]

They were not used to escort ships across the Atlantic. Where possible we used them to attack the Axis forces and lay mines. The only area where we sank a lot of shps was in the Med where despite the poor conditions for sumarines the RN did well.
The Germans used coatal routes were possible which limited our oppertunities and in the Pacific after the quick collapse we lacked the bases to operate from.

[Peter Clare]

In September 1939 Britain had 58 submarines but there were only 21 boats in home waters and five of these were more than 10 years old. A futher 11 boats were building but British submarine strentgh, in terms of availalbility where it was most needed was less than that of Germany. Most pre-war exercises involved boats performing in the role of a loyal opposition: but commanding officers, especially on the China Station, had seized every opportunity of practising submerged attacks so that at the outbreak of WWII the majority were highly skilled professionals. It took time to call the eastern veterans back but when they returned they quickly made their mark.
The strategy and tactics adopted in the Royal Navy by Rear Admiral Submarines were diametrically opposed to those of his German counterpart. Doudtless he would have liked more boats but numbers meant less than they did to Doenitz. Rear Admiral Submarines had no intention of embarking on surface pack-attacks like Doenitz who intended to direct groups of U-boats on to convoys; fast warships were the principal targets for the Royal Navy and the British War Plan disposed submarines along lines in individual patrol arears where, far from chasing targets, they waited for the enemy to come to them. Thus, in the Royal Navy of 1939 submarines were in the Admiralty mind, little more than mobile mines.

Regards

Peter.

[spidge]

From: http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/server/show/nav.2558

The nature of RN operations took a heavy toll on submarines and submariners' lives. In addition to the hazards of inshore navigation and wary ASW forces, Commanding Officers faced the ever present danger of mines, and it is estimated that 50% of the seventy four RN submarines lost during the war fell prey to that weapon.
Notwithstanding the risks - (Winston Churchill described it as the most dangerous of all occupations) - the Service never lacked for volunteers and they acquitted themselves with great distinction. The major operating arenas were Norwegian Waters; the Mediterranean where, under the leadership of Captain 'Shrimp' Simpson, the 'Fighting Tenth' Flotilla fought an often bloody, but ultimately successful battle against the Axis replenishment route to North Africa; and the Far East where, based at Trincomalee and in Australia, and operating in appaling conditions when foot-rot, sweat rash and prickly heat were constant companions for weeks on end, RN submarines posed an unrelenting threat to Japanese shipping operating in the Malacca Straits.
Stories of submarine exploits during World War 2 are legendary. Wanklyn in Upholder, lost after 25 gruelling patrols, but with a remarkable 135,000 tons of enemy shipping to his credit; Linton in Turbulent, who in the process of sinking over 90,000 tons of enemy shipping, was hunted 13 times by the opposition and was depth charged on over 250 occasions; Miers in Torbay, who sat on a glassy sea inside an enemy harbour charging his batteries before applying the 'coup de grace' to his targets - were all VC winners (the first two posthumously), and personified the skill and courage of all the crews. Hezlet's remarkable 'five out of eight' torpedo hits from Trenchant when he sank the Japanese Cruiser Asigara at a range of 4000 yards will remain a world record for all time. Cloak and dagger operations, which were immensely dangerous but always rewarding and vital to the war effort, figured largely in the tapestry of submarine operations, and there were also the achievements of the mini-submarines, the X-craft and the Chariots. The sinking of the German battleship Tirpitz and the Japanese Takao earned a further four VC's but, in addition to these very highest awards, were a string of medals for feats of outstanding courage in the most challenging of circumstances.
By the end of the war British submarines had sunk 2 million tons of enemy shipping and fifty seven major war vessels, including thirty five enemy submarines, by gun and torpedo.

[Peter Clare]

Adding a little to what Spidge stated. "Notwithstanding the risks...."

I believe that it was the quality of the officers and ratings which decided the effectiveness of the British submarines themselves. In Nazi Germany men were drafted to U-boats more or less irrespective of their own inclinations, provided that they were medically fit. But in the Royal navy submariners were almost entirely volunteers. Out of 3,383 men mobilised in 1939 only 108 were pressed, although the ratio was to increase upwards as the war developed. Submarine pay and hard-lying money would have undoubtedly helped recruiting, nearly doubling the wage packet of many submariners.
No upper age limit was fixed for ratings but it was agreed that a captain should idealy be between twenty-five and thirty years old.

Regards

Peter.

[redcoat]

RN submarines, considering the lack of targets, and the dangerous shallow waters in which they had operate in, were highly successful.

In fact the figures of 9.3 ships sunk per RN submarine loss, or 20,266 tons sunk per loss is only bettered in WW2 by US Navy submarines operating in the far safer waters of the Pacific.

German U-boats sank 3.6 ships per loss, or 18,565 tons per loss.

ps, Wanklyn in HMS Upholder was the highest scoring Allied submariner of WW2


General Fritz Bayerlein, Rommel's Chief of Staff, : "we would have taken Alexandria and reached the Suez Canal if it had not been for the work of your submarines".

[lancesergeant]

Probably the reason that UK subs get little press or mention is the effort concentrated in fighting the U-boat threat in the Atlantic. The fact that they get/ or got little press adds weight to the "silent service".

[Glider]

The U V class were probably the best small submarine used in numbers by any Navy in the war.

[spidge]

There was an American series in the very early 60's called Silent Service.

Did this air in the UK?

Anybody remember it?

[spidge]

The RAN Submarine service had 4 attempts to evolve.

A Brief History of the Royal Australian Navy's Submarine Service

The RAN

Submarine Badge

Australian Submarine Dolphins



In 1901, when the Commonwealth of Australia was proclaimed, the value of submarines (boats, as they are affectionately called) as a form of naval warfare was still a contentious issue. However, the 'Super Powers' of the day encouraged submarine designers and by 1904 France possessed a flotilla of 85 submarines, with the Royal Navy and the United States Navy having 50 and 25 boats respectively.
Germany was also involved with the development of the submarine, with the engineer Rudolf Diesel leading the way in the design of a 'heavy oil' or diesel engine. This engine was to prove much safer than the petrol engines that were available at the time. As a result of the German submarine expansion program, it was decided in Australia to purchase two large 'E' class boats for service in our waters. So began the first of four attempts to establish a submarine service in the RAN. In February 1914, 'AE1' and 'AE2' were commissioned into the Royal Australian Navy. These boats were to enjoy mixed success and at the outbreak of WW1, both were assigned to waters off New Guinea. It was during this time that 'AE1' was lost with all hands, presumably from equipment failure.
'AE2' remained in the South Pacific until being offered to the Royal Navy for service in European waters, where she was ordered to join the British Squadron in support of the Gallipoli campaign at the end of 1914. In April 1915, only hours before the historic landings on the Gallipoli peninsula, 'AE2' was ordered to attempt what was to become the first successful passage through the Dardanelles, a narrow and treacherous stretch of sea. After successfully penetrating the Dardanelles, 'AE2', sank a Turkish cruiser and for six days harassed the enemy in the Sea of Marmora before being sunk. Her crew was captured and imprisoned in Turkey as Prisoners of War. Thus ended the first attempt to form the RAN Submarine Service.

A further three attempts were made.

The fourth and more permanent attempt to establish the Royal Australian Navy's Submarine Service began with the purchase in 1967 of the six 'Oberon' class boats from the United Kingdom. In August of that year the Submarine Support Depot HMAS PLATYPUS was commissioned for the support of the new submarines. The Oberon class boats, HMA Submarines OXLEY, OTWAY, OVENS, ONSLOW, ORION and OTAMA have served the RAN and our nation faithfully over the ensuing three decades. During their time in service they have often proven to be a capable non-nuclear submarine, able to uphold the highest in submarine operating standards. At approximately their half life stage, a very ambitious and successful modernisation took the boats into the modern missile age, providing the Oberons with the capability of the United States Navy's Mark 48 wire guided torpedo and Harpoon missile.

Australia has now commissioned 6 new Collins class submarines which I will post in "The Barracks".